Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Risk 2210, Settlers of Catan, Carcassone, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by NukeHavoc »

There's a good conversation regarding using tokens vs. cards to represent goods in Race for the Galaxy; the argument is that using cards for goods, while not visually compelling, does have the advantage of burning through the deck faster (thus making it more likely that certain cards will come up faster when you're forced to re-shuffle).

I'd be interested in seeing how this plays in my version of the game.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/462570/ ... ic-/page/1
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by Jonkga »

That's intriguing. I'm decidely in the tokens camp, however. It just seems odd to use a card for other than it's intended purpose (ie - its not the card while it is a resource). And, I'm not sure burning through the deck would be a good thing. It seems to me that would lessen the importance of your decisions if cards you decided to discard come back to you too quickly.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
Hardcorhobbs
Posts: 5423
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Fort Wadsworth

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

I'd be more concerned with changing the flavor of the game. What's a fun, non-aggressive game could quickly change tone if you can horde cards for nothing other than tokens...

"Oh! Ken's going military build? Oh man hahaha this is the card he needs to finish his build... TOKEN!" Not that our group would ever do that... :wink:
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by NukeHavoc »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:"Oh! Ken's going military build? Oh man hahaha this is the card he needs to finish his build... TOKEN!" Not that our group would ever do that... :wink:
Well, the resource mechanic would work against that somewhat, in that it compels you to spend resources if someone plays that phase card right? So if I suspected that your maniacal cackling was at my expense (or if I thought some cards might be in the resource piles) I could force that mode just to get the cards back in the deck.

Having said that, I'm still very much in the token camp, as I think it makes the game more visually compelling and easier to manage. I think it would be a lot easier to lose track of things using just cards.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by Jonkga »

Ken's right, Cory. When the phase comes up to spend resources, you have to spend them. So you can't really horde them.

Also, in reading over the thread Ken posted, I guess the way it is supposed to be done is that you aren't using a card from your hand, but rather one drawn from the deck FACE DOWN. So, you don't know what the card is that you are using as a token.

In thinking about it, it could be cool. It would be interesting to play through a few rounds like this to see if it does impact the game.

I'm guessing from the comments that it wouldn't really change anything but the aesthetics of using a token vs. putting the card above/below the card generating the good.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
Hardcorhobbs
Posts: 5423
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Fort Wadsworth

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

True true... though high resource builds could potentially horde cards. I've had one or two builds where I couldn't spend all the resources in a single turn. But those you'd have to build for and it could actually add to the strategy instead... interesting concept...

That said another reason for the chips is as to not get the different resources confused. :)
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by Jonkga »

Hardcorhobbs wrote: That said another reason for the chips is as to not get the different resources confused. :)
Very true. I'm all for less confusing...
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by EvilGenius »

So we used the 'card as resource' mechanic on Friday night in all 3 games of Race for the Galaxy. I don't think it actually changed the balance of power in the game or led to anything disruptive.

Aaannndd, after a few more rounds, I think I grok the game a little better now. I'm still wouldn't classify it as a 'go-to' game for me, but I wouldn't sit out the hands either. I think it helped that we were fairly focused on the game but a little differently than when we played before. We were naming and describing the cards we were playing, which actually helped in keeping track of your opponents build. And with 4 players there was less overall chaos to deal with. :)

One aspect of the game which really came together for me on Friday night was the big development cards. The ones that cost 6 to play and have the variable points multipliers. I mostly ignored those in the first several games I played but I see now that they are meant to be the goals that you're building for. I don't think it's possible to get a very high score without playing 1 or more of those cards. And if you're able to play 2 or 3 of them you can get truly ridiculous scores. I think my high score was 74.

Took me a while to get into a card groove but I think I'm liking it much more now.
Another daring escape for the intrepid Spaceman Spiff!
User avatar
erilar
Posts: 6580
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:05 pm
Location: Kirkwall
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by erilar »

I'm totally a token-use advocator. Covers up the art less, is less cluttery, makes more sense. If nothing else, it saves wear and tear on the cards from extra shuffling. Cards have a finite lifespan - well proven from my Magic days. (My XBL MtG cards are still looking pretty new though. :lol: )
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
User avatar
erilar
Posts: 6580
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:05 pm
Location: Kirkwall
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by erilar »

BTW, the fact that me not gaming on a given Friday almost always precipitates the only board gaming weeks makes me want to poke my eye with a hot stick. Just saying. One of you fuckers can take one for the team and get a cold next time... :D
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by EvilGenius »

erilar wrote:BTW, the fact that me not gaming on a given Friday almost always precipitates the only board gaming weeks makes me want to poke my eye with a hot stick. Just saying. One of you fuckers can take one for the team and get a cold next time... :D
Yeah, I was remarking on that very topic on Friday night. :) I think the answer is this: on some weeks if you're going to sit out because you're not feeling the RPG vibe but would show up for boardgaming, then let us know and we can boardgame that week instead. Then maybe you wouldn't feel like you were missing your only opportunities.

I know you'd play boardgames 3 out of 4 Fridays by choice and honestly I lean much more towards boardgaming now that 4e has killed my D&D itch. :)
Another daring escape for the intrepid Spaceman Spiff!
User avatar
erilar
Posts: 6580
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:05 pm
Location: Kirkwall
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by erilar »

No, I won't make excuses if I don't feel like playing - I'll just say so. I was sick on Fri and went to bed at 10pm as planned. :) I have been enjoying SWSE quite a bit and not feeling the RPG burnout like I did with 3E. You know, because things actually happen in SWSE instead of being trapped in fantasy stop-motion hell. :D Plus, everyone's plots have been really interesting. You guys have been doing a really good job writing and running the games.

That said, of course I like board games more, but for me the primary objective on Fridays is hanging out. It seems like we see each other less and less all the time and I frigging hate that. :cry:

I think I'm going to try to reinstate the occasional weekday board game night. We've kind of gotten away from that, but I'd like to see if we could do it once in a while - especially given Jon's new weekend schedule.

It seems like making an appointment/date helps the gaming actually happen (especially w/ Xbox). I pretty much quit WoW because it required making an appointment to play, but now that I don't have those appointments, it seems like there's always some reason not to play, which ends up making me nuts. I got to Xbox all of like 2 hrs all weekend. :P
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by NukeHavoc »

I think getting back to a quarterly schedule would be a good thing. I know I say this every so often, but it's true -- we tend to fall back to an ad hoc schedule when things get busy (e.g. the holidays) and then we keep adhoc'ing along, which mostly means we end up dropping board games save for those nights when we don't have enough players.

Having a definite board game Friday build into the schedule would be a good thing IMHO, and we should get back to that. And I agree with Lance that picking particular dates for things like Xbox Live works best; it gives us something to shoot for (as an aside, I need to play more multiplayer Magic -- can you do the co-op campaign online?)
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by NukeHavoc »

Back to the topic at hand, I think using cards as resources causes you to burn through the deck faster, and thus, re-shuffle faster. At the same time, it takes certain cards out of circulation, forcing you to occasionally "flush" the system via a Consume phase. It's not enough to burn through the deck looking for cards with Explore (as Damon can attest to).

I think playing with the basic game also changes things; we shuffled more frequently IMHO (partly because of cards-as-resources, partly because there were fewer cards overall). It's also harder for two people to pursue the same strategy; e.g. Bob and I were doing military builds, and were chasing the same capstone cards. With the expansions, you've got more options for those kinds of cards (and hell, more options in general).

Over all, I don't think it made a huge difference. It plays fine either way, and I think the tokens make things look nicer. :)
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
erilar
Posts: 6580
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:05 pm
Location: Kirkwall
Contact:

Re: Interesting conversation regarding RFtG resources

Post by erilar »

NukeHavoc wrote: I need to play more multiplayer Magic -- can you do the co-op campaign online?
No, unfortunately the co-op campaign is couch-only. Teach Sue how to play! :)
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
Post Reply