Holy Crap: Dragon & Dungeon Ending!

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NukeHavoc
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Holy Crap: Dragon & Dungeon Ending!

Post by NukeHavoc »

Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of Dragon and Dungeon
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193930

Paizo's home page says:
As you have recently learned, Wizards of the Coast has decided not to renew Paizo's license to publish Dragon and Dungeon, and plans to provide similar content in an online capacity in the future.
This sucks. Sucks. Sucks. Sucks. I love the Web -- hell, I make my living on the Web -- but all the free web content in the world can not replace having Dragon and Dungeon on my bookshelf.

Paizo plans to release "Pathfinder", which sounds like its going to be a semi-replacement for "Dungeon", offering two "adventure path" type story arcs a year.

It's not the same though. Crap. I still can't believe they did this.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

Yeah, definitely sucks. WotC seems to be saying, "we want to control everything about our game" and "fans be damned". I mean, Dragon's been around since the hobby started, and only serves to bolster the D&D experience. I can't believe WotC lost sight of that...

As for their web stuff. Well, it better get better. Right now the only really seem to offer short advertising blurbs about their new products. Much more than that will be needed to replace Dragon...
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Lars Porsenna
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

THis is an appallingly bad decision. This is basically saying "we're gonna do it on the cheap." And it's going to come back and bite them.

Damon.
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:THis is an appallingly bad decision. This is basically saying "we're gonna do it on the cheap." And it's going to come back and bite them.
I think so. Dragon played a huge role in the run up to 3E and I think they'll really miss the ability to get their message out to their core audience for 4E.

stupid.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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T1Mirage
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Post by T1Mirage »

Perhaps it's not so bad. The magazine has a lot in it but must be expensive to produce. All the color, binding, shipping to subscribers, shipping to stores, overhead, damaged goods, etc.

An issue right now costs $7.99 and like always you either love the issue or it is worthless. It could even fall back to the old versions where it was black and white - but still expensive.

I'm not certain about costs, but with most gamers having internet access and i-pods, why not go with a cheaper edition.

Trust me, I love being able to read Dragon before going to bed, but the market and the hobby may be changing, again. I'm certain who ever is leading this up probably is looking for a new dynamic to make it have advantages over the current state.
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Lars Porsenna
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

So I wonder how many people are going to migrate to the on-line version of content? I assume this will be a pay subscription. I know that even if I subscribe, I probably will be even less inclined to read the content when it is on the PC (and sure I can print stuff out, but that's a pain and a waste of paper).

You know, one thing I often do is pick up a magazine (I keep ALL my magazines, BTW) and just thumb through it from time-to-time. Even if I'm not actively reading, I'm browsing (the Germans have a term for just such an activity: blättern), picking up ideas or reading items of particular interest. Now I'll have to log on to my account, find an article I want to read, and take up time and electricity looking for stuff. Lacks the visceral feel of browsing.

I also have an account with Battlecorps, an on-line subscription service for Battletech literature (short stories and serializations). I find even though I pay the monthly fee for the service, I am far less motivated to log on and read PDFs on my PC. I find it inimical to my reading style as well: most of my reading is done late at night, when all I want to do is curl up in bed and read, not go out and print something and THEN read.

That being said, I can see this working better for Dungeon than Dragon (in fact, I was hoping Paizo would come out with a Dungeon archive someday...no such luck anymore...).

I'm done ranting. So what are you all going to do with your subscriptions?

Damon.[/url]
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

T1Mirage wrote:Perhaps it's not so bad. The magazine has a lot in it but must be expensive to produce. All the color, binding, shipping to subscribers, shipping to stores, overhead, damaged goods, etc.

An issue right now costs $7.99 and like always you either love the issue or it is worthless. It could even fall back to the old versions where it was black and white - but still expensive.

I'm not certain about costs, but with most gamers having internet access and i-pods, why not go with a cheaper edition.

Trust me, I love being able to read Dragon before going to bed, but the market and the hobby may be changing, again. I'm certain who ever is leading this up probably is looking for a new dynamic to make it have advantages over the current state.
Thing about the cost argument, is that it cost *zero* for WotC to produce the magazine, because Paizo is a separate company. WotC didn't pull the plug on the funding, just the licensing. Making it impossible for Paizo to keep publishing a magazine about a game they don't have licenses to talk about. Sure, they could continue keeping it all open source, but that's very limiting for the magazine.

So, it'll probably end up costing WotC more to provide online content that they currently do not produce.

And, many more people read magazines than access the internet, either through PCs or other personal devices. Me, I prefer magazines for much the same reasons Damon pointed out. And, even though I have internet access and an I-pod, I only remember to go to WotC's site when someone posts a link here, and I haven't ever ventured to the podcast world that Ken and Lance keep raving about. Hell, I keep reading the old Dragon mags I have on the shelf occasionally for gaming inspiration, and those are issues 68-91 -- is WotC going to archive all that old material?
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Well this certainly solves my question "Do i renew my Dragon subscription that ends in two issues?". I'm really bummed. I love getting the new material every month. While pathfinder sounds cool, it's not going to have the same content dragon currently has. With pathfinder being a mix of dungeon and dragon there will be half the issue that will only be archival to me (I rarely read Dungeon. I just skim through it and save it for future adventures).

I normally go to wizards site daily. The only articals I find worth while are Save My Game for its DM insites it inspires and Design and Development, because sometimes they have cool alternate versions of creatures (which make them a) easier to run and b) more formitable). So I have to agree, Wizards is going to have to spend a lot more effort to make up for the loss of Dragon and Dungeon.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Yes, they killed it because Wizards wanted the brands back, to be used for online initiatives, not because of money being spent on publication (though they were one of the big Paizo advertisers, so certainly a good chunk of cash was being spent by Wizards each month to support the magazines).

I'll have to check my Writer's Market, but I think Dragon's circulation was around 80,000, so I'm sure traffic to the web site far outstrips that. But I think that the value of those subscribers lay in being a big chunk of Wizards core audience -- the people you don't want to alienate. Oh, and look, they just alienated them.

The Wizards web site has consistently been a hard to navigate, thrown-together mess that's only going to get worse when they start putting Dragon content online. It's hard enough to find stuff now; I can only imagine what it will be like once they start posting more content.

My thought was perhaps we'll see some sort of quarterly "Dragon" branded softcover consisting of the best articles published on the web site. That's still not as good as a magazine, but better than online only.

Ken
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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erilar
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Post by erilar »

Wow - what a bummer. It's the demise of a true institution.

I haven't listened yet, but the newest episode of the Pulp Gamer podcast has an interview with Phil Lacefield Jr., the Sales Manager for Paizo Publishing. Should be some answers there. I'll fill you in later today.

I'm with Damon. Web pages and .pdf publications just can't replace paper magazines. Jon and I, being computer users without laptops, are a good example. If we're to read an electronic article, we HAVE to be at my desk. I spend enough time at a computer desk - I like to plop on the couch, or as George pointed out, read before falling asleep. Can't comfortably do that with a .pdf or web page - even if you have a laptop, really. They are still unwieldy to some extent.

I'll give an example. I downloaded the "starter" .pdf for White Wolf's new incarnation of their Werewolf RPG a few months ago. I'm totally digging it - really love the ideas and content - but I'm only a few pages in 'cause I can only read it on my PC. I'd have finished it a month ago if it were in paper.
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

FYIlooks liek wizards may be pulling all its licences. Perhaps they are gearing up for 4th? Or just looking at a new marketing ploy? Someone said there are a lot of different mechanics in Star Wars Saga Ed. Perhaps Ken can shed some light on that subject next week. Saga Ed. might be their "experiment" twards 4th rules?

In other news, I'm really getting excited for pathfinder. Anyone else?
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Post by EvilGenius »

I would say these actions make the most sense in the following scenarios:

1) 4th ed will come next year
2) WoTC is going to try to cancel the OGL (with upcoming 4th ed)
3) Hasboro is going to try and sell WoTC and get out of D&D altogether (in whch case you'd want to recover as many of your licences as possible so the prospective buyers can do what they will with the intellectual property)

Interesting times.
Hardcorhobbs wrote:FYIlooks liek wizards may be pulling all its licences. Perhaps they are gearing up for 4th? Or just looking at a new marketing ploy? Someone said there are a lot of different mechanics in Star Wars Saga Ed. Perhaps Ken can shed some light on that subject next week. Saga Ed. might be their "experiment" twards 4th rules?

In other news, I'm really getting excited for pathfinder. Anyone else?
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

I wonder who they would sell it to? Maybe one of the "heavy hitters" of OGL? Some other toy company? WHo would have the capital to buy the property?

If they sell it, however, that would kill the SWRPG I think. IIRC one of the reasons Hasbro was able to support the license(s) was because they ALREADY had the toy line...

Damon.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:2) WoTC is going to try to cancel the OGL (with upcoming 4th ed)
This has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere, but basically Wizard of the Coast can't "cancel" the OGL. They can decide to stop releasing content to it, they can make 4th edition content non-OGL, but anything released OGL is out there and can't be taken back by the nature of the license.

Hasbro might have WotC license the print rights to some third party so they could retain computer rights, which I'm guessing are fairly lucrative.

Ken
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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Post by EvilGenius »

Yes, this is more along the lines of what I meant. No they can't just tell everyone, "hey, stop making OGL products", but what they could do is release 4th edition with enough rules changes and a slight name change (going back to AD&D, for example) that it's considered a seperate game mechanic and not adopt the OGL for 4th edition.

Which would mean that no OGL company will be making "AD&D" (for example).
NukeHavoc wrote:This has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere, but basically Wizard of the Coast can't "cancel" the OGL. They can decide to stop releasing content to it, they can make 4th edition content non-OGL, but anything released OGL is out there and can't be taken back by the nature of the license.
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