The State of Our Greyhawk

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setanta14
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The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

Ok, to start things off for discussion of whether we have a future gaming in Greyhawk, and to have a resource for campaign ideas for whomever DM's, I think we need to have described what the state of our campaign world is:

The Pomarj:
Turrosh Mak has been slain in battle, and his tenuous dominion over the various orcish/goblinoid/monstrous tribes of the Pomarj has passed along with him. To what extent the Domain of Obsidian Bay (with or without Blue being in revolt), The Ulek States, Keoland, Celene, Greyhawk City, Dyvers, or other powers (like the dwarves) exploit this power vacuum is a real question. Will any of these states assert themselves as the true successor state to the Poor Marches of old? Will Obsidian Bay in particular become even more expansionist and seek to annex the entire peninsula, seeing this as it's sovereign right given it's efforts against the orcs? And what of the Earth Dragon cult in all of this?

The Geoff Baronies:
Ok, I'll do some handwaving and say that the crisis in Sterich (Istivin) has passed, but the threat of a reemerging Horned Society in exile still exists (via The Eyebiter), as well as the strained relations between Geoff's counties and the militaristic Gran March/Knights of the Watch. Lots more could be done here.

The Great Kingdom:
What of all that Ivid the Undying material? We had to leave this early in the campaign as things became too dangerous for our characters to remain. We have occasionally encountered some old enemies from here, so obviously the powers that be there still have designs against our A-Teamers.

Ok, this should do for a broad overview... then we'll get into the minutia
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Lars Porsenna »

setanta14 wrote: The Pomarj:
Turrosh Mak has been slain in battle, and his tenuous dominion over the various orcish/goblinoid/monstrous tribes of the Pomarj has passed along with him. To what extent the Domain of Obsidian Bay (with or without Blue being in revolt), The Ulek States, Keoland, Celene, Greyhawk City, Dyvers, or other powers (like the dwarves) exploit this power vacuum is a real question. Will any of these states assert themselves as the true successor state to the Poor Marches of old? Will Obsidian Bay in particular become even more expansionist and seek to annex the entire peninsula, seeing this as it's sovereign right given it's efforts against the orcs? And what of the Earth Dragon cult in all of this?
OB never seemed like an expansionist state. I would think that OB would consolidate its terretory, while some of the other cities (like Highport and yes even Stoneheim) assert their own independence and carve out mini-kingdoms of their own. I can easily see Stoneheim FREX coming under the power of one of Mak's lieutenants, or perhaps a newcomer able to assert a certain level of dominance, and create their own state between OB's Domain and the P. of Ulek. IMHO, a Hobgoblin dominated state centered in Stoneheim would make things interesting.

Meanwhile Highport establishes its own terretory between the Wild Coast, the Domain, and the Drachensgrabs. I would see it become more akin to what the Wild Coast used to be: lots of smuggling, petty lordships, and in general a rough n' tumble town.

Meanwhile, Greyhawk IMHO would eject the remainder of the Orcish armies, and formally annex the Wild Coast, revitalizing the towns and creating an area for the refugees to settle. fortified towns in the Wild Coast also serve as strongpoints along a still mostly unsettled border (especially after the fallout as Highport begins to exert its sovereignty and pushes out those that aren't listening to their message).

Damon.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:OB never seemed like an expansionist state. I would think that OB would consolidate its terretory, while some of the other cities (like Highport and yes even Stoneheim) assert their own independence and carve out mini-kingdoms of their own. I can easily see Stoneheim FREX coming under the power of one of Mak's lieutenants, or perhaps a newcomer able to assert a certain level of dominance, and create their own state between OB's Domain and the P. of Ulek. IMHO, a Hobgoblin dominated state centered in Stoneheim would make things interesting.
I tend to agree. OB would likely attempt to consolidate and fortify its holdings, namely the southeastern corner of the Pomarj (OB, Mogelsville, Blue), possibly expanding its frontier out to Kalib's Cathedral.

The Horror That Came to Stoneheim destroyed the keep and most of the mercenary lords' fortified manors ringing it before being driven back into the catacombs and sealed away by the Obsidian Tower.

An immediate concern after the Second Battle of Waterton would be the damage to the underground aqueduct that brings OB much of its clean water, as well as the lose of the aquifers there. Rebuilding Waterton and that infrastructure (or coming up with an alternative) would be a serious concern.

There have long been rumors of a war being fought beneath the Pomarj involving something known as The Dark Empire or The Shadow Empire. This came up in Dark City a few times, but nothing serious has come of it in game. There are certainly factions beneath the Pomarj that might make a play with Turrosh Mak dead.
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setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

Yes, I also see Stoneheim and Highport as hives of scum and villainy similar to Blue before it was "reformed" under the auspices of Obsidian Bay. I also think that there would be elements within Obsidian Bay who would favor expansion of the Domain... sparking a new political dispute along the same lines as the Draft.

I'm not sure how big of a hurry Greyhawk would be to annex new territory (refugees and rebuilding stuff costs money), but they would likely shore up their borders... perhaps private interests (like good churches) would do the heavy lifting on the borders.

Dyvers, on the other hand, would probably jump at the opportunity to have greater influence (using their Gnarley Ranger allies).

The War of the Dark Empire, likely involving *cough* Drow *cough* amongst others was something very interesting when we found clues about it in Dark City. I'd like to hear more about this.
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Lars Porsenna »

NukeHavoc wrote: There have long been rumors of a war being fought beneath the Pomarj involving something known as The Dark Empire or The Shadow Empire. This came up in Dark City a few times, but nothing serious has come of it in game. There are certainly factions beneath the Pomarj that might make a play with Turrosh Mak dead.
Ooh! Already excited!

Damon.
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Lars Porsenna »

setanta14 wrote:I'm not sure how big of a hurry Greyhawk would be to annex new territory (refugees and rebuilding stuff costs money), but they would likely shore up their borders... perhaps private interests (like good churches) would do the heavy lifting on the borders.
Well, they wouldn't really be annexing new territory, but rather integrating territory they already occupy in the form of the Wild Coast (recall much of the WC was occupied by Greyhawk after the Wars). Rehabilitating the towns in this region both provides housing to the refugees (and yes, I would see private organizations doing a lot of the rebuilding, but with the City offering very favorable Charters of Incorporation to the existing towns, to encourage immigration).

Damon.
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setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

I could definitely see Greyhawk selling off lucrative charters... especially to territory that they don't exactly have claim to or control, much like the monarchs of Europe did to the frontiers in the Americas.

Now, as far as the Blackrazor Guild itself, recruitment was a big thing during the wars because the more troops you had to commit to the war, the more influence you had (and the more pay you got from the government?). Now that the war is over, what incentive would their be for any adventuring guild to have its roster stuffed with mooks?
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Hardcorhobbs
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

setanta14 wrote:Now, as far as the Blackrazor Guild itself, recruitment was a big thing during the wars because the more troops you had to commit to the war, the more influence you had (and the more pay you got from the government?). Now that the war is over, what incentive would their be for any adventuring guild to have its roster stuffed with mooks?
I don't really think the war is over. Mak is dead, Stonehiem is crushed; but there are still thousands of humanoids rampaging across the pomarj. There will be tons of in-fighting, but strong humanoid leaders will attempt to assert control over the remains. But many more bands of humanoids running without any kind of leadership, attacking anything that they can across the country-side. I think now more than ever adventuring guilds will be a highly lucrative business. After all, there are also humanoid settlements just waiting to be plundered ;-)
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Jonkga
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Jonkga »

So, the assumption is some sort of future for the BR Guild in OB. And the discussion is what does Greyhawk in general look like and what is the role of our characters in that world.

I feel sort of wierd entering this discussion. As Ken pointed out, while I've had all sorts of fun playing along with the BR's as Gideon and Fonteyn, I still feel like pretty much a newcomer to this rich pageant. I'm really interested to hear what the old guard has to say on thier desire to keep this going, and what direction they want to go.

So, Ken, Nate, Bob, Lance, Damon: what is your interest in continuing the adventures of your BR characters, or creating new characters to continue the adventure in OB, or in Greyhawk in some way? And, how do we see that happening? If Ken can't commit to standing GM duties, who is going to / how are we going to run games in a shared continuity?

Those are my first thoughts...
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setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

The war is over, but the fighting is not. I can't see the humanoids organizing any sizable coordinated armies without Mak's leadership... if anything, I see the Pomarj outside of OB control descending further into chaos as the humanoid cheiftains turn against one another... the Pax Orcana has ended among the various races and tribes. Only Highport remains with any semblance of "government", as Stoneheim is now in utter ruins.
Hardcorhobbs wrote:
setanta14 wrote:Now, as far as the Blackrazor Guild itself, recruitment was a big thing during the wars because the more troops you had to commit to the war, the more influence you had (and the more pay you got from the government?). Now that the war is over, what incentive would their be for any adventuring guild to have its roster stuffed with mooks?
I don't really think the war is over. Mak is dead, Stonehiem is crushed; but there are still thousands of humanoids rampaging across the pomarj. There will be tons of in-fighting, but strong humanoid leaders will attempt to assert control over the remains. But many more bands of humanoids running without any kind of leadership, attacking anything that they can across the country-side. I think now more than ever adventuring guilds will be a highly lucrative business. After all, there are also humanoid settlements just waiting to be plundered ;-)
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Lars Porsenna »

A little of the above!

Really, I would like to resolve some of the outstanding issues with my characters, and either retire them, or whatever. Making new characters wouldn't be bad, but I would want to do so after retiring my old characters.

OTOH, I also wouldn't mind spending some time behind the screen myself. We'll see how that pans out with my own developlents, but as I mentioned I wouldn't mind getting the Highfolk campaign going, if there is enough interest...

As far as how that happens, one thought I had was to tie the characters as some sort of officials to the Domain. FREX, with the immediate threat from Mak eliminated, the city clergy might organize, and (in a surprise election) elect Kalib as the Domain's Master of the Churches Guild (or something), while Scrappy gets an office as a Trade Representative, etc. In this way, the characters are tied together, without neccessarily being a part of the BR guild. The city then might send them on missions or quests in the same way the Guild organized quests. Except because now it is a level higher, it involves international concerns, rather than just the concerns of the BR guild...

Damon.
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setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

I see most of my old characters remaining in semi-NPC status

I'd like to use Ian as more of an NPC as well, with the day to day runnings of Malcanthet's Den taking most of his time.

Whether we continue with the Blackrazor Guild or not, I don't really care much about... what I DO care about is continuing to adventure in Greyhawk, and using Obsidian Bay as the center of that (whether the actual action, or as a base of ops) at whatever level... 1st, 5th, 10th, it doesn't matter to me... what matters is the familiar environment that I have had a hand in building, whether through adventures I've played in, background and such that I've developed, adventures I've run, or simply the creativity of others that I've had the pleasure to witness.
Jonkga wrote:So, the assumption is some sort of future for the BR Guild in OB. And the discussion is what does Greyhawk in general look like and what is the role of our characters in that world.

I feel sort of wierd entering this discussion. As Ken pointed out, while I've had all sorts of fun playing along with the BR's as Gideon and Fonteyn, I still feel like pretty much a newcomer to this rich pageant. I'm really interested to hear what the old guard has to say on thier desire to keep this going, and what direction they want to go.

So, Ken, Nate, Bob, Lance, Damon: what is your interest in continuing the adventures of your BR characters, or creating new characters to continue the adventure in OB, or in Greyhawk in some way? And, how do we see that happening? If Ken can't commit to standing GM duties, who is going to / how are we going to run games in a shared continuity?

Those are my first thoughts...
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EvilGenius
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by EvilGenius »

Okay. As far a having a group pow-wow and determining 'campaign goals' goes, we can certainly do that.

But to echo Jon,
Jonkga wrote:So, the assumption is some sort of future for the BR Guild in OB. And the discussion is what does Greyhawk in general look like and what is the role of our characters in that world.
I'm not sure that we've actually decided on this. Are we actually going to go back to Greyhawk? And if so, in what fashion? With what ruleset?

I think that we need to hash out those things BEFORE we delve to deeply into what may be the all-too-theoretical excercise of determining the state of the campaign setting.

I think we need to do these things, probably in this order:
1) Who is interested in continuing to adventure in the Obsidian Bay setting of Greyhawk?
2) Do we have enough interested players to make an ongoing game viable?
3) What ruleset is everyone comfortable enough with to power the setting?
4) After determining ruleset, do we STILL have the requisite quorum for a viable Greyhawk game?

IF we have enough interested players and
IF we can agree on a ruleset
THEN we still have to figure out who will take on regular DM duties
AND figure out a realistic schedule for the game (ie, 1-2/month, 1-2 bi-monthly, 1/ 6 months, etc)

Only at that point is it fruitful to even talk about setting development and updating.
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EvilGenius
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by EvilGenius »

And here are some answers to my own questions. :)

1) Yes, I am interested in continuing to adventure in the Obsidian Bay setting of Greyhawk.
2) I think we'd need a minimum of 5 people to make this viable; 1 DM and 4 regular players.
3) Ruleset - 3.5 or maybe Pathfinder.
3a.) (Additional Question) - How tightly should we continue to be bound by Greyhawk "cannon"?
------ I think we should loosen up on Greyhawk cannon a bit. I think it's pretty reasonable to open some things up beyond their traditional GH status. Dwarven paladins and even *shudder* wizards? We should probably start allowing those things. Non-traditional races? Maybe. There are plenty of ways to introduce them to the game world. I think we should let go of some of the 1e baggage in GH.


As for DM'ing, I can step up to the plate and DM for a while. But as a DM, I'm best at shorter arcs. 3 or 4 adventure storylines and then I'd probably need to switch off to someone else for a while.

As for scheduling, I don't know if GH will be the primary game for the group or not. Given how we've developed to this point, I rather think not. So my opinion would be at least 1/month, certainly no more than 2 per month.
And that's going to change the nature of the adventures a little bit. When you're meeting every week, you can get pretty far into the minutia. If it's only 1/month, especially with other gaming in between, I think the adventures need to be painted with broader strokes, if only so that everyone can remember enough of what's been going on to maintain that feeling of continuity.

So those are my answers. I really think everyone should address these questions, old guard and new blood, before we go any further.
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:Only at that point is it fruitful to even talk about setting development and updating.
I disagree, only because some options for such a campaign interest me more than others. Also, what we want to do informs what rules we want to use.

Blackrazor Guild: Generation 3, starting at 1st level and going to 12? Third Edition could handle that. The ongoing adventures of the A-Team (or even B-Team)? Probably not.

But regardless, I'm in no particular rush to get back to Greyhawk. I'm content with Star Wars for now, and actually, the longer the Star Wars campaign runs, the more likely I think I'll be to want to go back to Greyhawk at some point in the future. That may seem paradoxical, but after 10+ years, I'm enjoying our break.

Given a choice between returning to Greyhawk or playing through the Mandalorian Wars in Star Wars, I'll take the Mandalorian Wars. Given a choice between returning to Greyhawk, and playing through the Jedi Civil War ... that's a bit tougher. It would depend on the strength of the Greyhawk campaign idea.

Don't get me wrong, aspects of Greyhawk do get the ol'brain churning with story ideas ... but I'm not ready to go back to it yet.
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