The State of Our Greyhawk

For characters who aren't active in a campaign, but who still have plans for world domination.
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Lars Porsenna »

3a. I dunno. I personally think we should stick to canon on this. Dwarves don't have mages in general. This makes them unique. OTOH, Elves don't have paladins, for a similar reason. Now dwarven paladins? I could totally see something like that, and it would make sense for a race that has a full portfolio of battle oriented gods, and very lawful to boot. I think a re-evaluation of what classes are available for each race might be in order, but IMHO certain items are Holy Cows, and with the background justifications for 1e's arbitrary class/race limitations, some of them make sense or add character...

As for rules, I VERY strongly want to see PF. If not, Hackmaster might be an acceptable substitute, and I'll definitely check that out when it arrives...

Damon.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

I'll throw another option out there: we jump the campaign timeline ahead five years, and use the jump to declare certain things fait accompli.

Just using Damon's characters as an example: Alaric carves out his stronghold, and attracts his followers. Scrappy establishes his Thieves Guild in Blue. Baldwin becomes an elemental savant. Moriam and the dwarves solidify their control over Khelez Mar, and declare themselves to the world as a new dwarven kingdom.

Why?

Because each of these goals that Damon's set for his characters is practically a mini-campaign in their own right. By allowing him (and other characters) to achieve these goals, we can then plan ahead for a new phase of the campaign in which they already have these resources, and can bring them to bear on a particular problem.

So maybe the new campaign opens with a gathering of the former Blackrazor compatriots, each now lords of their domain, facing some great new threat -- e.g. each of your followers have gone up against agents of the Shadow Empire ... and lost. The city refuses to confront the problem; it's only by restoring the old alliances, and bringing the full-brunt of your combined power to bear on the Empire, that it might be defeated.

I could envision alternating story perspectives as well -- the leaders of the various Blackrazor factions convening war councils and using their powers to divine what to do next, and then dispatching mid-level agents to deal with what they find (or to launch entirely new investigations). In some ways, this would combine the best aspects of Westmarks (being able to run new characters connected to our old one) while scratching the itch I think some people in the group have, which is to at least *occasionally* play their higher level characters in some way.

This is why I'm ultimately more interested in what people would like to do, then the specifics of what rules we would use to do it. This scenario appeals to me. The ur-Flan campaign appeals to me. Yet another first level campaign set in CY 592 Greyhawk does not.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:3a. I dunno. I personally think we should stick to canon on this. Dwarves don't have mages in general. This makes them unique. OTOH, Elves don't have paladins, for a similar reason.
I concur. If we're not going to stick to something resembling cannon, then why play Greyhawk? I'd rather run Eberron and *really* mix things up.

Dwarven paladins are still a hard pill for me to swallow. Dwarven holy warriors who represent some sort of variant 'paladin' unique to their race I could accept.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

I'd say go all the way to CY600... I think LG left off with CY598, and I occasionally use background material from the Triads (but not the adventures, they are mostly lame being designed for Cons). CY600 would put us almost a whole decade into the future, beyond all of the LG story lines, and perhaps there would be all kinds of new-century plots and such.

And to comment on Bob's input, I think it's important to talk about this stuff first to see if it's even worth having the rule set argument.

Like Ken, I'm content playing Star Wars for a good while... but if we ever get back to D&D, I want it to be in Greyhawk/OB.
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Hardcorhobbs
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

setanta14 wrote:Whether we continue with the Blackrazor Guild or not, I don't really care much about... what I DO care about is continuing to adventure in Greyhawk, and using Obsidian Bay as the center of that (whether the actual action, or as a base of ops) at whatever level... 1st, 5th, 10th, it doesn't matter to me... what matters is the familiar environment that I have had a hand in building, whether through adventures I've played in, background and such that I've developed, adventures I've run, or simply the creativity of others that I've had the pleasure to witness.
We do have a group of up and coming heroes in Obsidian Bay. Things were really starting to get interesting in Dark City. Long running characters were starting to gain a reputation, and they were in the process of saving the city from the vile fish cult! I think Dark City was the one campaign that ran long enough to really start having a major impact on the city itself. It sounds like returning to Dark City would satisfy your concerns. I know I'd love to get back to it.
NukeHavoc wrote:I'll throw another option out there: we jump the campaign timeline ahead five years, and use the jump to declare certain things fait accompli.

Just using Damon's characters as an example: Alaric carves out his stronghold, and attracts his followers. Scrappy establishes his Thieves Guild in Blue. Baldwin becomes an elemental savant. Moriam and the dwarves solidify their control over Khelez Mar, and declare themselves to the world as a new dwarven kingdom.
To go along with these thoughts you really have to consider: Are the older Blackrazors playable anymore? While I understand why you want to play the characters (I would too), it would have to be something so grand (such as a massive war with Mak) to pull them out of their duties. Kalib has a Church to run. Ragnar has his barrony. Tenevir is serving as a General and in the Obsidian Tower. To me these characters are already legends, on par with Mordenkainen, Melf, Bigby, Tenser, Zagyg, etc. Like the other legends, I don't see them as completely done with their stories, but I don't really see them adventuring like the days of old.

Consider one of my favorite parts of Westmarks. The party uncovered the lair of the Eye-biter. We climbed the mountain, and braved his traps to fight him face to face... and fail horribly. It was at that point we called in the big guns. At the next Nuke(m)con the Blackrazors sent in their aces, and Eye-biter was left packing. I would love to see more of this down the line.

Anyway, just some thoughts to consider. I don't have one of the legendary characters of my own (yet), so it's definitely easier for me to move on. Plus, like Ken and Nate I'm loving Star Wars, so I'm really in no hurry to get back to Greyhawk. Besides, starting this thread has gotten me thinking of all the work the wiki currently needs. We gotta finish that up before we start adding new content all over again :wink:
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:To go along with these thoughts you really have to consider: Are the older Blackrazors playable anymore? While I understand why you want to play the characters (I would too), it would have to be something so grand (such as a massive war with Mak) to pull them out of their duties. Kalib has a Church to run. Ragnar has his barrony. Tenevir is serving as a General and in the Obsidian Tower. To me these characters are already legends, on par with Mordenkainen, Melf, Bigby, Tenser, Zagyg, etc. Like the other legends, I don't see them as completely done with their stories, but I don't really see them adventuring like the days of old.
My guess is we're not talking about the epic-level (or near epic) characters, who've pretty much reached their end game. I think we're looking at more of the old 'B Teamers', like Sven, Luc, Moriam, Scrappy, Fontain (I'm not sure about Gideon; I think he's like 18th), etc. I shouldn't have referenced the A Team; I forgot how high level they are nowadays. So maybe in the 13-16 level range on the high end.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

My personal preference regarding the immediate future of the campaign (as in, the next year) is to continue with Star Wars until September/October, at which point we should all have copies of the Pathfinder rules (or at least everyone who wants to do the playtest).

Then in October or November, we do the ur-Flan playtest campaign for 3-6 months (as with 4E, it's variable depending on interest) and then either go back to Star Wars or launch into some sort of CY 592-600 Greyhawk campaign.

I should note that I am really *really* enjoying Star Wars, and I would like to continue it in some way after the Pathfinder playtest.

Having said that, I think that it's good to talk about what we want to do with Greyhawk in the future, because that will help us evaluate Pathfinder. If we're talking about playing games in the 1-15 level range (which would be my personal definition of the 3E sweet spot) then we may want to run ur-Flan longer. Alternatively, if we're only talking 12-15th level (or maybe 10th to 15th?) then maybe we should start ur-Flan at a higher level to stress-test the rules at that range.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
setanta14
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by setanta14 »

I'm really looking forward to the Ur-Flan Campaign... we'll have to start coming up with background about what we can play, what they have access to, and why they would adventure together.

For Dark City, I'd like to continue playing Sir Fawkes in a future campaign... I got bored with Vargas too quickly.

Ragnar I'm willing to write off as retired, and Tanevir I like playing, but I realize that his level puts him beyond the realm of feasibility... but having them accomplish things by fiat would be cool, and have other lower level characters serving them to play seems cool too.
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Hardcorhobbs
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

setanta14 wrote:Ragnar I'm willing to write off as retired, and Tanevir I like playing, but I realize that his level puts him beyond the realm of feasibility... but having them accomplish things by fiat would be cool, and have other lower level characters serving them to play seems cool too.
I'm sure Tanevir would have major involvement in any Dark Empire stuff. Afterall, my second Westmarks character Tarian was specialist Underoerth scout for Tanevir. :wink:
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Jonkga
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Jonkga »

As for my characters, the major ones are Gideon, Fonteyn, Melchior, and Gruffudd.

Gruffudd is Dark City, so I'd play him in any continuing Dark City stuff. Unless I create someone new.

Melchior is mostly retired after RttToEE, and is away at the Watchers of the Coming Sunset enclave out of the region (somewhere NW of Dyvers, IIRC).

Gideon is retired to his barony in Geoff, and would likely send some sort of Steelstormer follower to anything needing adressing. He's mostly NPC these days.

And, Fonteyn is my most active BR, but is at the point where Maure Castle probably drove him to taking more of a rest from adventuring and settling down in OB.

So, largely I'm game for whatever way the group wants to go with Greyhawk and OB. And, largely, I'd probably be rolling up new guys if/when we get back to D&D.

Ultimately, I'm not super excited to continue these same characters, but I am inclined to do more adventuring in our shared city and setting.
Last edited by Jonkga on Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jonkga
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Jonkga »

I don't ahve strong feelings about where we head with the campaign, although I echo most folks desire to continue the adventuring in Greyhawk/OB in some way shape or form eventually.

Ur-Flan campaign sounds good, as does CY600 stuff.
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EvilGenius
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:I'll throw another option out there: we jump the campaign timeline ahead five years, and use the jump to declare certain things fait accompli.

Just using Damon's characters as an example: Alaric carves out his stronghold, and attracts his followers. Scrappy establishes his Thieves Guild in Blue. Baldwin becomes an elemental savant. Moriam and the dwarves solidify their control over Khelez Mar, and declare themselves to the world as a new dwarven kingdom.

Why?

Because each of these goals that Damon's set for his characters is practically a mini-campaign in their own right. By allowing him (and other characters) to achieve these goals, we can then plan ahead for a new phase of the campaign in which they already have these resources, and can bring them to bear on a particular problem.

So maybe the new campaign opens with a gathering of the former Blackrazor compatriots, each now lords of their domain, facing some great new threat -- e.g. each of your followers have gone up against agents of the Shadow Empire ... and lost. The city refuses to confront the problem; it's only by restoring the old alliances, and bringing the full-brunt of your combined power to bear on the Empire, that it might be defeated.

I could envision alternating story perspectives as well -- the leaders of the various Blackrazor factions convening war councils and using their powers to divine what to do next, and then dispatching mid-level agents to deal with what they find (or to launch entirely new investigations). In some ways, this would combine the best aspects of Westmarks (being able to run new characters connected to our old one) while scratching the itch I think some people in the group have, which is to at least *occasionally* play their higher level characters in some way.

This is why I'm ultimately more interested in what people would like to do, then the specifics of what rules we would use to do it. This scenario appeals to me. The ur-Flan campaign appeals to me. Yet another first level campaign set in CY 592 Greyhawk does not.
I like all of this and I think this is probably the best way to handle things. In a perfect world we could all take a solid year of everyday gaming with a perfectly accomodating ruleset and play out all of the things we really want to accomplish. In OUR world, I think it's best just to jump ahead as Ken suggested.

And there are still some epic things that we'd like to have on the horizon as eventual goals, epic badguys who we'd like to defeat. Lewandrew & the Cult of Death Undying, Necros, the Dark Circle, the Blood Lord, Woryx, Malphas, a few more Suel Archmages, the Knights of the Iron Nation, for example. But if we adventure with followers we can actually make a whole 5 or 6 levels worth of adventures leading up to calling in the old ATeam who shows up for the epic battle.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:I like all of this and I think this is probably the best way to handle things. In a perfect world we could all take a solid year of everyday gaming with a perfectly accomodating ruleset and play out all of the things we really want to accomplish. In OUR world, I think it's best just to jump ahead as Ken suggested.

And there are still some epic things that we'd like to have on the horizon as eventual goals, epic badguys who we'd like to defeat. Lewandrew & the Cult of Death Undying, Necros, the Dark Circle, the Blood Lord, Woryx, Malphas, a few more Suel Archmages, the Knights of the Iron Nation, for example. But if we adventure with followers we can actually make a whole 5 or 6 levels worth of adventures leading up to calling in the old ATeam who shows up for the epic battle.
And there in lies the rub, because realistically, each of the things you just mentioned requires something like 3-4 weeks of prep time if you're going to run it as an A-Team event (if the Assault on Turrosh Mak is any indication).

A more realistic scenario (IMHO) is that the A-Team *remain retired*. Take Kalib, Tanevir, Ragnar and the other ultra-high level characters out of the mix (this may include Gideon as well) and it becomes more manageable.

My thinking was that the A-Teamers would be involved more as an interactive resource/story element, because frankly, trying to design and run encounters for these characters is exhausting.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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EvilGenius
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:My thinking was that the A-Teamers would be involved more as an interactive resource/story element, because frankly, trying to design and run encounters for these characters is exhausting.
So who said you have to be the DM for that mr greedypants? :p
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Jonkga
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Re: The State of Our Greyhawk

Post by Jonkga »

EvilGenius wrote:
And there are still some epic things that we'd like to have on the horizon as eventual goals, epic badguys who we'd like to defeat. Lewandrew & the Cult of Death Undying, Necros, the Dark Circle, the Blood Lord, Woryx, Malphas, a few more Suel Archmages, the Knights of the Iron Nation, for example. But if we adventure with followers we can actually make a whole 5 or 6 levels worth of adventures leading up to calling in the old ATeam who shows up for the epic battle.
Umm, Bob, I think you misspoke here. You list all these Big Bads, and by mistake (I'm sure) listed a friend and former guildmate (leader even) right among them. I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue, right? Couldn't possibly have meant it, right? :wink:
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
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