Luc Conversion

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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

setanta14 wrote:Would the +3 revert to a +2 on the 5E scale?

Also, adamantine for a weapon would be unnecessary, and just flavor.
EvilGenius wrote:Dumatharl
+3 Adamantine Battleaxe, Delver Minor Property, Religious: Dumathoin
Dumatharl has 3 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges, and if a secret door or trap is within 30 feet of you, the Dumatharl pulses and points at the one nearest to you. Dumatharl regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.
Yes, it should be +2, sorry. :)

Adamantine is mostly just flavor text on the weapons, except there are a few references to adamantine weapons for monster resistances.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

setanta14 wrote:Also, there's nothing that says the Gem can't be set in a ring, so it could still be a Ring of Seeing, but the stone is where the actual magic is.
Yes, it could certainly be a ring, but there's no real difference. Either way would require attunement. And in 5e, there's no limit to the number of magic rings you can have, other than the attunement restriction. But I'd prefer to just make it a Gem and be done with it. :)
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

So here's the Champion Version of Luc. [Edited for Correct Math. :)]


Name: Luc Krolnochack
Race: Hill Dwarf
Background: Guild Artisan
Class: Fighter
Archtype: Champion
Level: 16

Abilities: Mod Save
Str 25 _____7_____12
Dex 10 ____0 _____0
Con 20 ____5 _____10
Int 13 _____1 _____1
Wis 13 ____1 _____6
Chr 10 ____0 _____0

Skills:
Athletics +12
History +6
Insight +6
Nature +6
Passive Perception +11

HP: 276
AC: 22
Armor: Adamantine Dwarven Plate

Attacks: 3 main, 1 off
(Dual Weapon Wielding)
Initiative: +8 (Alert feat + Remarkable Athlete Martial Archtype Feature)
Melee'
Dryshek +15 to hit, 1d8+10 (x3)
Dumatharl +14 to hit, 1d8+9 damage

Ranged
Dryshek +15 to hit, 2d8+10 damage (3d8+10 damage vs giants)

Class Abilities:
Fighting style: Two-Weapon Fighting
When engaging in two-weapon fighting, add your ability modifier to the second attack
Second Wind; On your turn, use a bonus action to regain 1d10+16 hp. Regain after a short or long rest.
Action Surge (one use)
On your turn, take 1 additional action and a posible bonus action. Regain after a short or long rest.
Martial Archtype: Champion
Martial Archtype Feature (Superior Critical) Weapon attacks score a critical hit on 18, 19 or 20.
Extra Attack (2)
Martial Archtype Feature (Remarkable Athlete) Add +3 to any Str, Dex or Con check you make that doesn't use your proficiency bonus and your running long jump distance increases by 7ft.
Indomitable (Two Uses)
Reroll a saving throw that you fail, you must use the new roll. Regain ability after a long rest.
Martial Archtype Feature (Additional Fighting Style: Defense)

Feats:
Tough
Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points.
Dual Wielder
* You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
* You can use two weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
* You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Mage Slayer
* When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.
* When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain concentration.
* You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you.
Alert
* You gain +5 bonus to Initiative
* You can't be surprised while you are conscious
* Other creatures do not gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.
Resilient
* Increase [Wisdom] ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
* You gain proficiency in [Wisdom] saving throws.
Sentinal
* When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
* Creatures within 5' of you provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
* When a creature within 5' of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.

Magical Items:
Adamantine Dwarven Plate
Armor, Very Rare (plate)
While wearing this armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC. In addition, if an effect moves you against your will along the ground, you can use your reaction to reduce the distance you are moved by up to 10 feet.
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.

Dryshek
Adamantine Dwarven Thrower, Gleaming Minor Property
Weapon, Very Rare (requires attunement, battleaxe, dwarf)
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. It has the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When you hit with a ranged attack using this weapon, it deals an extra 1d8 damage or, if the target is a giant, 2d8 damage. Immediately after the attack, the weapon flies back to your hand.

Dumatharl
+2 Adamantine Battleaxe, Delver Minor Property, Religious: Dumathoin
Dumatharl has 3 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges, and if a secret door or trap is within 30 feet of you, Dumatharl pulses and points at the one nearest to you. Dumatharl regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.

Ioun Stone (Absorbing) (Requires Attunement)
Belt of Fire Giant Strength (Str 25) (requires attunement)

Eye of Dumathoin
Gem of Seeing - Wondrous Item, Rare (requires attunement. Dwarven make. Has the Harmonious Minor property for Dwarven users)
This gem has 3 charges. As an action, you can speak the gem's command word and expend 1 charge. For the next 10 minutes, you have truesight out to 120 feet when you peer through the gem.
The gem regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.

Ring of Swimming
Tear of Krovis (+1 to 1 save/day)
Silver Griffin's Medallion (Cast Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell. Refresh after a long rest)

Kildare's Ever Ready Potion Sling (stores 5 potions, can call a potion to the spout and drink with an action. Does not require free hands)

Potion of Speed
Potion of Water Breathing x3
Potion of Heroism x4
Potion of Superior Healing
Potion of Greater Healing
Potion of Resistance x2


Skie's Locks and Bolts (Arcane Lock or Knock on all locks withing 30'. Reset after a long rest).
Last edited by EvilGenius on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:38 am, edited 5 times in total.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

So with this build, Luc never had to spend any of his Ability Score Improvements on bumping his stats, and put them all into feats?

I realize that Luc was one of the 2e dwarves, and our mileage may vary greatly with those characters, but by way of comparison, D'Klar's stats are:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 20
Chr 10

And that's spending all of his stat bumps on ability improvements; he's got zero feats. Of course, he's also Cleric 10 / Fighter 5, so he's got less Ability Score Improvements to play with than Luc (3 vs. 6, though I could pick up another stat bump/feat if he takes another level of fighter. :))
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

Ah, snap. Sorry, those are the 3e stats. I blind copied over from my original worksheet. :)

Luc was a 2e character so I used the 82 pt build, ala Nate, then I added the dwarven stat bumps, and the Belt of Fire Giant Strength sets Strength to 25.

The original 82 pt stats were:

Str 20
Dex 10
Con 18
Int 13
Wis 11
Chr 10

Add Dwarven racial mods and we get:

Str 20
Dex 10
Con 20
Int 13
Wis 12
Chr 10

Then add the Belt and Str becomes 25.
The Resilient Feat adds +1 to Wis, bringing it to 13.
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

heh. ok, so if I go with the 82 point build, it comes out a bit differently:

Str 17
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 10

With the dwarven modifiers, it becomes:

Str 19
Dex 10
Con 19
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 10

With that as a starting point I can pick up a Wisdom bump that gets me to Wisdom 20 easy. But at the same time, this is a lot more than what D'klar's final stats were in 3e:

Str 17
Dex 10
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 20
Cha 10

Because the 2nd edition characters had 82 point character builds, they basically start with high-level ability attributes. As such, they have little need to spend their 5e Ability Score Improvements on actually improving those scores; instead they'll likely get lots of feats.

D'klar ends up with 4 feats (maybe 3 if I bump up his Wisdom). Luc ends up with 6 because of the extra bumps that fighters get. Meanwhile, the 3e characters -- having started from scratch using the 5e standard point buy -- will likely have far fewer feats because they need to spend their points on ability bumps. I'm ok with having the Old School characters be a cut above to reflect that era, but this is feeling a little too awesome (D'klar ended up with better stats than he had in 3e, plus a bunch of feats!).

Don't get my wrong -- 82-point build D'klar could kick some real ass, but building in such a big gap between the 2e and 3e characters gives me pause.

I'm wondering if a better way to handle this would be to spot the 2e characters a few build points, and then level them up organically. You'll still end up with an extra feat or two, but they won't totally outclass the 3e characters.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

I played around with different point builds this morning. A 33-point build was able to get D'Klar back to his 3e stats. It cost him 3 stat bumps and allowed for no extra feats.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

Removed for misunderstanding. :wink:
Last edited by EvilGenius on Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

I think the bottom line regarding stats is this: we have characters made under several different systems over the past 20 years. We can either accept that some characters have better stats than others, or we can re-stat all of the characters using the same point cost allocation.

If we're going to re-stat all of the characters then I suggest we just use the 5e building guidelines, so that everything is in-line with 5e philosophy. 27 pt build, graded point buy, can't buy any stat higher than 15 (before racial modifiers) and no score lower than 8.

Everyone using the same allocation system is the only way to make it equal (dice rolls are inherently unequal. Fair, but unequal). If we do this, that will also put our 20 year old characters on equal footing with any new characters that are made in 5e going forward.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

If I re-stat Luc with 5e guidelines I get this:

Stat Buy--Racial Adjust-----Starting Stats
Str 15 --------0-------------- 15
Dex 10--------0-------------- 10
Con 15--------2-------------- 17
Int 11---------0-------------- 11
Wis 10--------1-------------- 11
Chr 10--------0-------------- 10

As a 16th level fighter Luc gets 6 Stat Bumps/Feats
Thematically, Luc would still take Toughness and Dual Wielding. That would leave 4 stat bumps.
I would put 2 pts in Con, then 2 pts in Str, then 1 point in both Con and Int, then 1 point in both St and Wis.
After applying bumps, Luc's stats would look like this:

Str 18
Dex 10
Con 20
Int 12
Wis 12
Chr 10

Add in the Belt of Fire Giant Strength and I'd end up with:

5e Stat Build ---------------- 82 pt Build from 2e
Str 25------------------------ Str 25
Dex 10----------------------- Dex 10
Con 20----------------------- Con 20
Int 12------------------------ Int 13
Wis 12----------------------- Wis 13
Chr 10----------------------- Chr 10

So the stats are functionally the same but Luc has 4 fewer feats, which is a pretty big difference.
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

And while we're talking about evening things out, all 3 of my main characters had used wishes at some point to wish for max hp (up to the level at which they made the wish. Subsequent levels rolled or took the average).

This has resulted in substantially more hp for those characters. Do we want to let that stand or should we also redo hp to be in line with 5e?
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setanta14
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by setanta14 »

Yeah, same here for Ragnar at least... those characters who used Wishes for either stats or hit points kinda earned them IMHO.

We could always roll them anew at the table or take the half+1 standard if what we roll is less.

EvilGenius wrote:And while we're talking about evening things out, all 3 of my main characters had used wishes at some point to wish for max hp (up to the level at which they made the wish. Subsequent levels rolled or took the average).

This has resulted in substantially more hp for those characters. Do we want to let that stand or should we also redo hp to be in line with 5e?
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:I think the bottom line regarding stats is this: we have characters made under several different systems over the past 20 years. We can either accept that some characters have better stats than others, or we can re-stat all of the characters using the same point cost allocation.

If we're going to re-stat all of the characters then I suggest we just use the 5e building guidelines, so that everything is in-line with 5e philosophy. 27 pt build, graded point buy, can't buy any stat higher than 15 (before racial modifiers) and no score lower than 8.
That'd be my preference. As you say, we've had a lot ofdifferent point buy and character generation methods over the years. Baselining everyone in 5e is probably the fairest thing.
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

setanta14 wrote:Yeah, same here for Ragnar at least... those characters who used Wishes for either stats or hit points kinda earned them IMHO.
I think ability improvements and hit point maxes via wishes are the sort of thing we should keep. D'Klar had a wish that granted a +2 on his spell DCs, but I think that's likely too much for 5e; I don't think there's anything in the game that can do that (but then again ... it was a wish).
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

I'm reworking Luc's stats and I'm thinking back to the essence of the character. For me, it's a couple of things:

1) Tough. Luc always had a high Con (even with instructions to not revive him via raise dead, which would reduce his Con!), and starting with 3e, had the Toughness feat and used a wish for max hp.

2) Dual Wielding Battleaxes. Even before he had his magical axes, Luc was a dual wielding battleaxes (using the same weap meant I could apply specialization bonus damage to both attacks).

3) Mastercraftsman. Originally Luc had a high Int for a fighter, but under 3e, he had a higher score and lots of skill points. As we upgraded and retooled several times, Luc went through a few iterations. At one point he even had class levels in the NPC Expert class!! By the end of his 3x run, Luc had a whopping +22 in Craft: Stonemason, +18 in Knowledge: Architecture/Engineering, +12 in Knowledge: Geology & Knowledge: Mathematics.

So in 5e, I think that's doable.
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