Luc Conversion

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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

So in looking at those core aspects of Luc's character, I'm obviously going to focus on the Toughness and Dual Wielding feats. I think I'm also going to take 1 level of Rogue to represent Luc's Expert levels under 3e. That level of Rogue will get me Expertise, which I can use to bump my skills (Nature and History, as substitutes for Geology, Architecture & Engineering, and Mathematics).

I'll lose the feat I would have gotten at 16th level fighter, but I was going to allot that to a feat that gave me some different combat options, like Sentinel or Mage Slayer. So instead of that, I'll have Sneak Attack, which I'll describe flavor-wise as coordinated, teamwork based combat. :)

I'll also pick up Thieves Cant, which will represent Luc's time as a craftsman, learning how to spot people trying to pull scams. ;)

Ken, the only slightly non-standard thing I'd like your approval on is starting skills for Guild Craftsman. The background gives you Insight and Persuasion, I guess to represent skill buying and selling. As a dwarf, I'd like to replace Persuasion with Nature as a companion skill to Stonemasonry (what kind of stone is best for this), Carpentry (what kind of wood is best for this), Blacksmithing (what kind of metal is best for this), Cartography, the Jeweler's trade, etc, etc, etc.

Also, I'm adjusting Chr down and Int up.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

The next version of Luc ...... :roll:

Name: Luc Krolnochack
Race: Hill Dwarf
Background: Guild Artisan
Class: Fighter/Rogue
Archtype: Champion
Level: 15/1

Abilities: Mod Save
Str 25 _____7______12
Dex 10 ____0 ______0
Con 20 ____5 ______10
Int 14 _____2 ______2
Wis 11 ____0 ______0
Chr 8 _____-1 _____-1

Skills:
Athletics +12
History +12
Insight +5
Investigation +2
Nature +12
Perception +5
Passive Perception +12
StoneMason's Tools +10 (plus relevant ability modifier)

HP: 274
AC: 22
Armor: Adamantine Dwarven Plate

Attacks: 3 main, 1 off
(Dual Weapon Wielding)
Melee'
Dryshek +15 to hit, 1d8+10 (x3)
Dumatharl +14 to hit, 1d8+9 damage
Ranged
Dryshek +15 to hit, 2d8+10 damage (3d8+10 damage vs giants)

Class Abilities:
Fighter:
Fighting style: Two-Weapon Fighting
When engaging in two-weapon fighting, add your ability modifier to the second attack
Second Wind; On your turn, use a bonus action to regain 1d10+16 hp. Regain after a short or long rest.
Action Surge (one use)
On your turn, take 1 additional action and a posible bonus action. Regain after a short or long rest.
Martial Archtype: Champion
Superior Critical Weapon attacks score a critical hit on 18, 19 or 20.
Extra Attack (2)
Remarkable Athlete Add +3 to any Str, Dex or Con check you make that doesn't use your proficiency bonus and your running long jump distance increases by 7ft.
Indomitable (Two Uses)
Additional Fighting Style: Defense

Rogue:
Expertise
Add double your proficiency bonus to Intelligence (Nature) checks and checks with Mason's Tools
Sneak Attack
Once per turn, deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attakc roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon. You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5ft of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Feats:
Tough
Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points.
Dual Wielder
* You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
* You can use two weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
* You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
Alert
* You gain +5 bonus to Initiative
* You can't be surprised while you are conscious
* Other creatures do not gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being hidden from you.

Magical Items:
Adamantine Dwarven Plate
Armor, Very Rare (plate)
While wearing this armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC. In addition, if an effect moves you against your will along the ground, you can use your reaction to reduce the distance you are moved by up to 10 feet.
Also, this suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.

Dryshek
Adamantine Dwarven Thrower, Gleaming Minor Property
Weapon, Very Rare (requires attunement, battleaxe, dwarf)
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. It has the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When you hit with a ranged attack using this weapon, it deals an extra 1d8 damage or, if the target is a giant, 2d8 damage. Immediately after the attack, the weapon flies back to your hand.

Dumatharl
+2 Adamantine Battleaxe, Delver Minor Property, Religious: Dumathoin
Dumatharl has 3 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges, and if a secret door or trap is within 30 feet of you, the Dumatharl pulses and points at the one nearest to you. Dumatharl regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.

Ioun Stone (Absorbing) (Requires Attunement)
Belt of Fire Giant Strength (Str 25) (requires attunement)

Eye of Dumathoin
Gem of Seeing - Wondrous Item, Rare (requires attunement. Dwarven make. Has the Harmonious Minor property for Dwarven users)
This gem has 3 charges. As an action, you can speak the gem's command word and expend 1 charge. For the next 10 minutes, you have truesight out to 120 feet when you peer through the gem.
The gem regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.

Ring of Swimming
Tear of Krovis (+1 to 1 save/day)
Silver Griffin's Medallion (Cast Cure Wounds as a 1st level spell. Refresh after a long rest)

Kildare's Ever Ready Potion Sling (stores 5 potions, can call a potion to the spout and drink with an action. Does not require free hands)

Potion of Speed
Potion of Water Breathing x3
Potion of Heroism x4
Potion of Superior Healing
Potion of Greater Healing
Potion of Resistance x2


Skie's Locks and Bolts (Arcane Lock or Knock on all locks withing 30'. Reset after a long rest).
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

So I went with a different version of Luc for the game yesterday. I chose the Battlemaster archetype, and I liked it. In particular, I found a nice combo with my Dwarven Thrower. It goes like this:

(Assumes I'm in melee' range)
1) Luc takes his bonus action to attack with my 2nd weapon (not the Dwarven Thrower), and use the Pushing Attack combat maneuver if the attack is a hit (at +14 to hit, it's probably a hit). Pushing Attack adds 1d10 to the damage and the target has to make a DC20 Strength save or be pushed 15 feet away. That makes the damage from this attack 1d8 +1d10 +9.

2) Luc takes the attack action to throw his Dwarven Thrower for 3 attacks. When used as a thrown weapon, you add an additional 1d8 damage. So with 3 thrown attacks at +15 to hit, that's 6d8 +30 damage.

3) Luc has 8 superiority dice, but since he's over 15th level, if he ever starts the round with no superiority dice he automatically recovers one. That means he can do this indefinitely.

4) Total damage for this attack routine, assuming all hits and no crits, is 7d8 +1d10 +39. Minimum damage is 47, average damage is 72, max damage is 105.

Sweet. :P
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NukeHavoc
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:So in looking at those core aspects of Luc's character, I'm obviously going to focus on the Toughness and Dual Wielding feats. I think I'm also going to take 1 level of Rogue to represent Luc's Expert levels under 3e. That level of Rogue will get me Expertise, which I can use to bump my skills (Nature and History, as substitutes for Geology, Architecture & Engineering, and Mathematics).

I'll lose the feat I would have gotten at 16th level fighter, but I was going to allot that to a feat that gave me some different combat options, like Sentinel or Mage Slayer. So instead of that, I'll have Sneak Attack, which I'll describe flavor-wise as coordinated, teamwork based combat. :)

I'll also pick up Thieves Cant, which will represent Luc's time as a craftsman, learning how to spot people trying to pull scams. ;)

Ken, the only slightly non-standard thing I'd like your approval on is starting skills for Guild Craftsman. The background gives you Insight and Persuasion, I guess to represent skill buying and selling. As a dwarf, I'd like to replace Persuasion with Nature as a companion skill to Stonemasonry (what kind of stone is best for this), Carpentry (what kind of wood is best for this), Blacksmithing (what kind of metal is best for this), Cartography, the Jeweler's trade, etc, etc, etc.

Also, I'm adjusting Chr down and Int up.
Revisiting this particular conversation from back in the fall in light of Sunday's playtest.

Regarding Guild Craftsman, I think I'd like to come up with new backgrounds (e.g. "Dwarven Craftsman") that build in the appropriate flavor/skills.

There's a new "Unearthed Arcana" that talks about skill-specific feats. Some of those feats may help in rounding out our legacy characters (Merwyn, for example, could benefit from the Historian feat) http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downl ... lFeats.pdf

Looking at Dumatharl again ...
+2 Adamantine Battleaxe, Delver Minor Property, Religious: Dumathoin
Dumatharl has 3 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges, and if a secret door or trap is within 30 feet of you, the Dumatharl pulses and points at the one nearest to you. Dumatharl regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.
I think the combination of the +2 bonus as well as the detect secret doors ability makes this an item worthy of attunement. Merwyn's flame tongue, with no magical bonus, does 2d6 fire damage and acts as a light source. It's a rare weapon the requires attunement. The frostbrand also has no magical bonus but does 1d6 extra damage and has, sheds light in cold temperatures, and can extinguish flames. It's very rare and requires attunement

Dumatharl is at least as good as those two weapons.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:Looking at Dumatharl again ...
+2 Adamantine Battleaxe, Delver Minor Property, Religious: Dumathoin
Dumatharl has 3 charges. While holding it, you can use an action to expend 1 of its charges, and if a secret door or trap is within 30 feet of you, the Dumatharl pulses and points at the one nearest to you. Dumatharl regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.
I think the combination of the +2 bonus as well as the detect secret doors ability makes this an item worthy of attunement. Merwyn's flame tongue, with no magical bonus, does 2d6 fire damage and acts as a light source. It's a rare weapon the requires attunement. The frostbrand also has no magical bonus but does 1d6 extra damage and has, sheds light in cold temperatures, and can extinguish flames. It's very rare and requires attunement

Dumatharl is at least as good as those two weapons.
Mmmmm, the detect secret doors ability is something that Dumatharl always had and it maps almost perfectly to the 5e Wand of Secrets. The Wand of Secrets does NOT require attunement, nor does a +2 weapon, so I'm not sure why adding the two together would require attunement. If Luc had a +2 axe and a separate Wand of Secrets there would be absolutely no difference, mechanically, from having the two items combined.

Flametongues and Frostbrands do extra elemental damage, which I think is more powerful than Dumatharl. Not as versatile, but more powerful.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

To expand on my reasoning a bit, a flametongue or frostbrand functions differently in combat from a weapon that doesn't require attunement. Additional elemental damage means that you can bypass certain resistances or immunities, even if you are subject to some others. For example, the demi-lich is resistant to magical weapon damage, but not elemental damage. If Dumatharl also did flame damage, that would have helped a LOT against the demi-lich.

Dumatharl's Wand of Secrets ability doesn't affect combat in any way. In combat, Dumatharl is a +2 weapon. Out of combat, using the Wand of Secrets ability isn't, in any way, affected by it being an axe instead of a wand.
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NukeHavoc
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:To expand on my reasoning a bit, a flametongue or frostbrand functions differently in combat from a weapon that doesn't require attunement. Additional elemental damage means that you can bypass certain resistances or immunities, even if you are subject to some others. For example, the demi-lich is resistant to magical weapon damage, but not elemental damage. If Dumatharl also did flame damage, that would have helped a LOT against the demi-lich.

Dumatharl's Wand of Secrets ability doesn't affect combat in any way. In combat, Dumatharl is a +2 weapon. Out of combat, using the Wand of Secrets ability isn't, in any way, affected by it being an axe instead of a wand.
I understand your reasoning, but to me its more a question of Special Damage+ Unique Ability = Attunement. Looking through the magic weapons in the book, most (maybe all?) of the weapons that combine a bonus to attack and damage with some other unique ability require attunement. Many of those are combat oriented, but given the magical economy in 5e, any magic item that lets you get more bang for your buck often seems to require attunement. There are exceptions (like dragon slayer, which grants a bonus to attack as well as a bonus against dragons), but to my eye the more complex a magic item is, the more likely it is to require attunement.

Overall, I'm thinking about the baseline for converting other notable items of less than legendary/artifact status. I'm sensitive to wanting to keep the flavor of unique items from 3rd edition, but I'd also like to keep the playing field closer to level than mountainous. :)
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

I understand what you're saying about the magical economy. I personally think two non attunemrnt items together shouldn't require attunement but if that's the way you'd like to go then I'd like to split out Dumatharls ability into a separate wand.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:
EvilGenius wrote:So in looking at those core aspects of Luc's character, I'm obviously going to focus on the Toughness and Dual Wielding feats. I think I'm also going to take 1 level of Rogue to represent Luc's Expert levels under 3e. That level of Rogue will get me Expertise, which I can use to bump my skills (Nature and History, as substitutes for Geology, Architecture & Engineering, and Mathematics).

I'll lose the feat I would have gotten at 16th level fighter, but I was going to allot that to a feat that gave me some different combat options, like Sentinel or Mage Slayer. So instead of that, I'll have Sneak Attack, which I'll describe flavor-wise as coordinated, teamwork based combat. :)

I'll also pick up Thieves Cant, which will represent Luc's time as a craftsman, learning how to spot people trying to pull scams. ;)

Ken, the only slightly non-standard thing I'd like your approval on is starting skills for Guild Craftsman. The background gives you Insight and Persuasion, I guess to represent skill buying and selling. As a dwarf, I'd like to replace Persuasion with Nature as a companion skill to Stonemasonry (what kind of stone is best for this), Carpentry (what kind of wood is best for this), Blacksmithing (what kind of metal is best for this), Cartography, the Jeweler's trade, etc, etc, etc.

Also, I'm adjusting Chr down and Int up.
Revisiting this particular conversation from back in the fall in light of Sunday's playtest.

Regarding Guild Craftsman, I think I'd like to come up with new backgrounds (e.g. "Dwarven Craftsman") that build in the appropriate flavor/skills.

There's a new "Unearthed Arcana" that talks about skill-specific feats. Some of those feats may help in rounding out our legacy characters (Merwyn, for example, could benefit from the Historian feat) http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downl ... lFeats.pdf
The version of Luc that I played yesterday did use the Clan Crafter background from Sword Coast. It gives you History and Insight instead of Guild Artisan which gives you Insight and Persuasion.

I looked at the tool feats and the skill feats but I didn't incorporate them because they're officially 'only in playtest'. I'd like to have a tool feat for stonemasonry, though. That would be completely thematic. :)
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Personally, I'm ok with Dumatharl not needing attunement. The reason being what Bob is saying... by breaking it into a +2 battleaxe and a wand Luc still gets away with no attunement changes. So in this case putting them together is just a flavor change.

That said, I think Luc's armor is a different story, and it should require attunement. Not only is it magical, it includes the properties of adamantium, AND it allows you to reduce any movement that may push you. So in this case you are adding the properties of two sets of armor that do not require attunement, but because you can't have them separately I think it should require attunement. (I don't have my book in front of me, is the push a minor power or something you added Bob?)

Anyway, those are my $0.02.
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:Personally, I'm ok with Dumatharl not needing attunement. The reason being what Bob is saying... by breaking it into a +2 battleaxe and a wand Luc still gets away with no attunement changes. So in this case putting them together is just a flavor change.

That said, I think Luc's armor is a different story, and it should require attunement. Not only is it magical, it includes the properties of adamantium, AND it allows you to reduce any movement that may push you. So in this case you are adding the properties of two sets of armor that do not require attunement, but because you can't have them separately I think it should require attunement. (I don't have my book in front of me, is the push a minor power or something you added Bob?)

Anyway, those are my $0.02.
The resistance to push effects is because it's Dwarven Plate. Per the DMG, page 167, 'while wearing this armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC. In addition, if an effect moves you against your will along the ground, you can use your reaction to reduce the distance you are moved by up to 10 feet."

I see your point about attunement because, as written, you couldn't actually have adamantine armor and something else combined, in this case, Luc's armor didn't start as admanatine. It was changed to adamantine as the result of a Wish in 3e. So I don't know how we want to adjudicate that.
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Hardcorhobbs
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Ah! I was just looking at standard plate. Forgot about the dwarven variant. I'm surprised that doesn't require attunement...
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:Ah! I was just looking at standard plate. Forgot about the dwarven variant. I'm surprised that doesn't require attunement...
I think the effect isn't a magical effect so much as 'holy crud this stuff is heavy'. :P
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by NukeHavoc »

[[I see your point about attunement because, as written, you couldn't actually have adamantine armor and something else combined, in this case, Luc's armor didn't start as admanatine. It was changed to adamantine as the result of a Wish in 3e. So I don't know how we want to adjudicate that.]]

I think we need to be careful with the wishes from 3rd edition translating to 5th Edition. For example, the whole "max hit points" thing leads to characters that are *a lot* tougher than your average character and that comes into play when fighting undead that reduce your maximum hit points (e.g. wights, demiliches, etc.). Not enough to cause the demilich to survive an encounter with Luc, but it has its impacts.

D'klar's wish -- which grant him a +2 to his spell DCs -- would have a significant impact under 5e. We never decided what to do that -- IIRC there's no feat mechanic for increasing spell DCs, so straight up conversion would be problematic.

With specific regards to adamantine armor and weapons, I'm inclined to follow the rules examples and keep them separate unless we're dealing with something truly unique like an artifact.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Luc Conversion

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:D'klar's wish -- which grant him a +2 to his spell DCs -- would have a significant impact under 5e. We never decided what to do that -- IIRC there's no feat mechanic for increasing spell DCs, so straight up conversion would be problematic.
The Robe of the Archmagi has several properties, one of which is to increase spell DCs and attack rolls by +2.
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