Leadership: The Confusion

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NukeHavoc
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Leadership: The Confusion

Post by NukeHavoc »

So the reason why I thought that a) cohorts don't count against the PCs' XP and b) why it was calculated based on a formula is because the d20 SRD has a radically different take on the subject from the DMG 3.5. Here's what the SRD says:
Cohorts earn XP as follows:

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.

Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).

Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.
Pretty big difference eh? I'm not sure where this revised Leadership feat came from -- I checked the DMG 3.5 errata, and there's nothing there but I do seem to vaguely remember something about the 3.5 leadership feat not being revised the way it was supposed to be, and later getting updated.

But I don't know where or when that update happened. I posted to the D20 SRD forums to see if anyone there knows.
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Hardcorhobbs
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Ok, thats exactly what I remember reading as well. And looking at my DMG it says that same procedure, on page 104 in the DMG under Cohorts, Experience points sub paragraph.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:Ok, thats exactly what I remember reading as well. And looking at my DMG it says that same procedure, on page 104 in the DMG under Cohorts, Experience points sub paragraph.
Ahhh! I was wondering if there was a paragraph somewhere that we were missing. Strange that they put the XP rules there rather than on pg 106 with the actual feat; they must have decided to remedy that when making the d20 SRD.

Thanks Cory. Everyone clear on Leadership now? :)
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erilar
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Post by erilar »

Read and understood, but I have reservations. Take one feat, and you get another party member two levels lower that doesn't consume XP?

Not very sure about the balance of that rule. In most of our other campaigns, there's at least one party member two levels lower than others that's always consuming XP.

Anyway, let's go ahead and trust the designers and use the rules as written. If the cohort ends up contributing "too much" to the party's power though, I reserve the right to switch to a model where he consumes a weighted amount of XP.
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

Well, it's what the rules say, so of course we're clear on it. Doesn't mean we have to think it makes sense or that we have to like it. Seems like in this case, the party as a whole (including the cohort) would end up with more XP than the encounter would normally reward a party (without a cohort). That doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense to me, but hey, it's printed in the rules, so whatever.
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Post by T1Mirage »

From my campaign, I removed the Leadership feat. It removed too much of the roleplaying and could quickly turn into "I get a follower" and it felt like they were a 'summoned monster'.

Roleplay it and be a leader. Use the rules for who and maybe what to attract or if they stay on board. I don't think we need rules around it. As for experience points and reward, I think they should get a share as a PC and run except for die rolling by the DM.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

I want to focus entirely on the mechanics of the 3.5 rules for the moment, and ignore whether or not a PCs should have cohorts/henchman/whatever.

1) Consuming Experience: The concept of characters (players or non-player characters) "consuming" XP is somewhat outmoded in my opinion. 3.5 doesn't really work that way -- there's no big "XP pie" that's getting divided among the party like there used to be under previous editions. (e.g. this band of ogres is worth 8000 xp, divided 4 ways for each party member)

Each player is getting their own, individualized amount of XP based on the difficulty of the encounter. Having more characters around -- whether or not they get their own XP reward -- has the effective making the combat easier. This ultimately reduces the amount of XP you get, but the reason why it's reduced is because the encounter got easier, not because the extra character got a share of the fixed XP pool.

2) Effect on Henchmen on Challenge Rating: The big concern, IMHO, shifts from the NPC's slice of the XP to the effect that having said NPC there has on the CR of the encounter.

For example, a CR 6 encounter with four Character Level 6 player characters has a difficulty rating of "Challenging" and a per player XP reward of 450. The "party level" is 6.0

Take the same CR 6 encounter, but add a 4th level henchman into the mix, and you end up with a difficulty rating of "Easy" as the party level raises from 6 to 6.3. As a result, XP diminishes accordingly -- those self-same 6th level characters now get an XP reward of 360. The henchman, if he was getting an XP reward, would get 480 (as it was still tough for him to fight a CR 6 creature relative to his CL 4).

The effect on the Challenge Rating (and thus the amount of XP the player characters get) is the same whether the henchman is getting XP or not. It's the act of helping that's the problem, not the gaining of XP (well, that's problematic too ... but more on that in a bit).

This can be counteracted by bumping up the encounter level slightly; adding a a CR 2 monster to the example encounter makes it Encounter Level 7 (and thus, "Very Difficult" for our band of undead slaying heroes) but it does up the XP reward for the four player characters back to 450.

3) Cohorts XP vs. Henchmen XP: So why all the convoluted math for cohorts? There are two reasons.

First, under the 3.5 rules, only cohorts can gain experience; followers and hirelings can not. If you want a Riker to your Picard, then you need a cohort. If you just need a redshirt, get a hireling.

Second, if you used the standard XP rules for PCs with cohorts, the lower-level cohort would quickly catch to his leader's level. In the second example encounter (with the difficulty increased to reflect the addition of the henchman) the NPC would have gotten 600 XP based strictly on his level (because all things being equal, lower level characters get more XP for fighting tough monsters than their more powerful counterparts).

Based on the leadership formula, the cohort would get 300 xp, which is significantly less than normal. It allows the cohort to advance while still remaining two steps (or levels) behind his leader.

Final Analysis

I think the primary concern about having cohorts/followers/hirelings around (and I'll post my thoughts on this later) is the effect is has on the over all Challenge Ratings of the encounters.

This goes back to Lance's concern of one feat granting an individual character considerably more power, but I think it's really a defused sort of power. It's not like getting a +12 Hackmaster because the d20 system has a built-in mechanic for accommodating more characters where as it's not always so great at dealing with super-powerful magic items getting added to the campaign.

A follower makes more work for the DM, because he needs to increase the encounter's difficulty to make things more interesting (and thus, there's slightly more prep work, and more in-game work as he tracks yet another combatant).

The question of XP is really a side issue. It's a question of how to keep a player's follower advancing so that you don't end up with a 4th level torchbearer following a 14th level paladin in the battle.
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

That's all well and good. But I think that with a party our size, there is no real need for a cohort. Sure, in solo play, or small groups of two players to a DM, a cohort or two might actually help to flesh out the party. But, in essence, the cohort and followers of a character are his "party". Would this be the sort of character who would also be part of another adventuring party, especially one already as large as ours? I think not...
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Jonkga wrote:That's all well and good. But I think that with a party our size, there is no real need for a cohort. Sure, in solo play, or small groups of two players to a DM, a cohort or two might actually help to flesh out the party. But, in essence, the cohort and followers of a character are his "party". Would this be the sort of character who would also be part of another adventuring party, especially one already as large as ours? I think not...
The reason do it was really more of a cool character concept -- the travelling knight and his squire ... or servant ... or scribe -- would be fun to play. And while we've had cohorts/followers in the past, we haven't really done anything like this.

But I tend to agree that while fun (at least for me) the overhead in terms of the DM needing to ramp up encounters, the added role-playing time to make the cohort more than just a summoned monster, and the inevitable slowdown in combat that comes from having another character around (even a second-string one) just isn't worth it.

That said, I think that this discussion of Leadership was useful, and personally I *would* love to see a character or two pick up the feat when we return to Dark City, where its probably more useful (and appropriate).

As for my character in Ravenloft, well, I'll post more about that somewhere else.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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T1Mirage
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Post by T1Mirage »

I do not have a problem with regarding experience points or necessarily game mechanic wise. I think the game would be fine for the level of encounters, etc. I think you could do some cool things like a Green Arrow / Speedy deal.

There are a hundred examples to go with: the brash youth who follows, the doting student, the young prince, or those that you mention.

My points were sometimes they are not used appropriately (e.g., my follower will spot the gold) or as fodder. I also think that followers should be attracted based on a scenario or event - or 'awarded' not because a feat states a player gets one. As well, the follower should have his own story to allow for additional adventures and experience.
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Post by erilar »

I wasn't aware that the cohort would lower the CR. In whatever fashion it is implemented, I simply felt strongly that party members should get less XP with a cohort in the mix, and it looks like that's taken care of via the CR.

As such, I have no beef with Ken bringing along a cohort. Still, I'd much rather not need to tweak the encounters (as I'm not very practiced at such, and welcome less stuff to "deal with"). It's always easy to say that one more monster "Im-ho-tep"s around the corner, so I guess I'll be able to get by. :)
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