Dwarven Imperative

The Dwarven Imperative.
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EvilGenius

Dwarven Imperative

Post by EvilGenius »

This post is a placeholder for now. I was thinking of some more threads involving the dwarven hold in the drachensgrabs and the increased hostility between the domain and the Empire of Mak.

So when I develop some of that, I'll post it on this thread. :)
EvilGenius

Filler Missions

Post by EvilGenius »

How does everyone feel about one off missions with the characters they played in the dwarven adventures (or new characters created who can interact reasonably or even favorably with dwarves)?

What I'm thinking is that i can work up some adventures originating at Khelez Mar but going out into the Drachensgrabs or the Pomarj.

It can be a bunch of normal stuff, like finding some orc forces in the area, or securing valuable local resources from the forces of Mak or from indigenous monsters. Stuff that can be completed in one session (two at most).

I'm not thinking any big story arc driven adventures, just some things to do during downtime with a variety of characters. It would be a good source of side xp, gold and maybe some interesting equipment.

What do you guys think?
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Lars Porsenna
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

Absofreakinlutely! I would actually like to see this as a "side" campaign...but Moraim would be all over that fer shizzy...

Damon.
EvilGenius

Post by EvilGenius »

Yeah, I figured Moraim would be interested. It would also be cool for Du'Klar, so he could advance in his prestige class. :)
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Post by NukeHavoc »

I'm up with that, particularly if their 1 or 2 shot adventures.

Ken
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Post by NukeHavoc »

You know, we could use this as part of a run up to the Strike on Turrosh Mak -- part of giving the city a reason to launch such an attack.
EvilGenius

Post by EvilGenius »

Well, that's a possibility. But I would like it to be a continuation of the dwarven campaign, so it probably won't go too far away from the pomarj. Prob won't be striking far into the orc empire.

And of course, the adventures, backstory and set up probably won't be condusive to extremely chaotic characters (like many of the a team or b team blackrazors).
NukeHavoc wrote:You know, we could use this as part of a run up to the Strike on Turrosh Mak -- part of giving the city a reason to launch such an attack.
EvilGenius

Post by EvilGenius »

So I've started thinking about the Dwarven adventures again, and I have a question for people.

What does everyone think about leveled up Orcs? On the one hand, I like Orcs as opponents, and leveled up Orcs are obviously more challenging.

But I'm thinking of 10-14 level adventuring. I'm not sure about levelling orcs up *that* much.

It's certainly possible to do, but I'm not sure how well that fits with GH in general, or the Pomarj in particular. I know Ken's Uruk-Hai were lawful and much stronger than regular orcs. And I've played with some leveled up Orcs, but really nothing above 3-5th level. I'm not sure if it breaks the aestetic to level up Orcs to higher levels.

What do you guys think?
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Lars Porsenna
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

I have no problems with levelled orcs.

Just like regular human society, some orcs will be special, unique. Some of these orcs may undertake the orcish version of adventuring. Or some may become experienced warleaders. A select few will rise to the highest ranks of the tribe as shamans, tribal captains, and the like.

I'm not sure how that would *not* fit into the imperative of GH.

Damon.
EvilGenius

Post by EvilGenius »

Well, with the war on the Pomarj, I'm sure lots of orcs have "leveled up". But I'm not sure how a bunch of 12 level orc fighters fit into normal orc society. or 12th level orc barbarians.

My thinking is that it would be more difficult in orcish tibes to advance to those levels of power, and that there would be fewer "powerful" orcs. They'd either be seen as threats to be eliminated or they would kill the current leaders and take over the tribes. But then they'd be tribal chiefs, not "adventuring" orcs. And not neccessarily appropriate to find together in groups.

Now certainly you can look at the current state of perpetual war and posit an outside influence (war + charismatic leader) to keep the orcs working together, I'm just checking with people to make sure that seems plausible to them and we don't get another "wandering army" situation. :p

In human and demi-human society, and in lawful evil societies, it's much easier to explain why a 12 level character ISN'T the ruler. The powerful character exists in a defined power structure that more or less keeps order. So you can have a 1st level king (or chief) and lots of 20th level characters running around. It works.

In chaotic evil societies, I think you have fewer really powerful members because none of the members really accept the dominant power structure. That leads to a lot of violent infighting, and casualties, thus lower power levels overall.

Or at least, that's my thinking. :)
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

Is there a canon source for how high level Turrosh Mak is?

I see orcish tribes operating much like pre-contact, and early post-contact Germanic tribes that the Romans met. In this society, the concept of "tribe" was not always fixed. Instead, tribes tended to form around powerful warleaders, and his followers. Hanger-ons would be attracted to his power and valor in combat, the prowess of his warband (comitatus), as well as his ability to reward the loyalty and prowess of his followers with booty and gifts.

In such a society, the most powerful will naturally become the leaders, as they have the greatest fighting ability. Additionally, the strongest, most powerful will attract the best fighters in the neighbourhood, attracted to his strength and largesse.

So no, I really don't see tribes of orcs lead by 1st level chieftains. In such tribes that 1st level heir to the current strong man (orc?) would have to prove himself fast, or find his position usurped by a challenger or his tribe melt away to neighboring tribes. Instead, I see tribes lead by high level orcs, with slightly less powerful warbands, and the vast mass made up of those 1-3rd level mooks...

Also I disagree that the cheiftains would not be "adventuring" orcs. The most certainly would be! They would HAVE to be, in order to enrich his restless warriors, prove his dominance to the warband and the rest of the tribe, eliminate threats to his power, etc. IOW, I see such an existence as being constantly precarious and short lived, but filled with glory, wealth, women, and power (by orcish standards). Rare? Sure! But warbands of 7-9th level fighters lead by a 13th level leader? Why not?

Damon.
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Now, I'm a bit spoiled on Orks after playing warhammer 40K for years, but the way they work is this:

Tribes are lead by a warboss. The warboss attracts followers in the form of powerful Nobs. These Nobs lead the individual squads of low level mook (too much Mutants and Masterminds on the brain :wink: ) orks. A powerful warboss can even unite other tribes by defeating other warbosses into following him (either through actually fighting him in a pit combat, or just showing he is more powerful in other ways). This is called a WAAAGH!!!...

Anyway you get the point. The warboss and the Nobs would all be high level (because no-one will follow someone they don't fear in Ork society). This doesnt mean a few orks couldnt take the warboss down. But in single combat he's the best the tribe has to offer. However as long as the orks continue to fight and plunder stuff they are happy.

That being said while I understand your point of view Bob, I think Damon's view is more of how I would see the orks.
EvilGenius

Post by EvilGenius »

I think you misunderstand what I was getting at, Damon. I'm thinking of Orc tribes similarly. I said in *human* or *demi-human* societies, you have 1st level leaders and lots of more powerful people running around who aren't the leaders.

In ORC society (or theoretically many Chaotic Evil societies), it doesn't work like that. The leaders are the MOST powerful, because they've fought their way to the top. And yes, they keep fighting once they get there to maintain their position.

So I was saying that in Orc society, higher level orcs are the tribal leaders and the warband leaders. And yes, they have some more powerful underlings. But I'm thinking that the underbosses wouldn't be TOO powerful, or they become a threat to the leader, and then the big boss has no qualms about squishing them to a) prove his own prowess and right to continue being the leader, and b) eliminate potential or actual challengers.

But unlike regular "structured" societies, like the early germanic tribes you mention, I'm not sure the highest level orc necessarily attracts others due to his fighting prowess and "largesse".

In a Chaotic Evil society, the biggest strongest orc rules as a despot, by intimidation and violence mostly. When that violence is mostly turned outward, on humans or demihumans, the tribe gets stronger, with less infighting. But let that outside threat diminish, and it's right back to regular, if not constant threats to the established pecking order.

The promise of raiding and pillaging will pull in other powerful warriors, but only so long as there's actual raiding and pillaging. If there's a long enough lull (prob not too long either), then those other warriors either leave, are made to leave, or start infighting to establish dominance.

Now you can have a semblance of order imposed by a sufficiently powerful leader, ala Turrosh Mak. But lets say that he's 20th level. How many 18th level orcs are there? a dozen? a score? How many of them think that, 'hey, if grak and hruk and rtar and bob and i gang up, i bet we can kill turrosh mak. and then we could all be big chiefs. and then i'd kill grak in his sleep and kill hruk with poison ...' and so on. Or how many of the 18th level guys say, 'hmmm, if i kill hruck and grak, then there are only 2 others as powerful as i am. that means i get more and better stuff. i know we're not supposed to fight each other too much but if i look cross-eyed at grak, he'll HAVE to fight me to the death!'.

So, to skip ahead a few steps, the relative power of orcs found 'out and about' depends on how powerful the top orc is. And that top orc better be significantly more powerful than his closest warlords, to prevent them from getting uppity. And so on down the line.

So you might have something like:
20th level - 1

17th level - 5

15th level - 15

12th level - 25

10th level - 35

8th level - 75

6th level - 100

Now the numbers are just for example, so don't get hung up on them.

What I'm checking though, is that everyone buys into and accepts that you guys *could* run into lots of groups of 10-12th level orcs, and you don't think it's goofy or too powerful or "that's not the way it would work, bob".

capish?
Lars Porsenna wrote:In such a society, the most powerful will naturally become the leaders, as they have the greatest fighting ability. Additionally, the strongest, most powerful will attract the best fighters in the neighbourhood, attracted to his strength and largesse.

So no, I really don't see tribes of orcs lead by 1st level chieftains. In such tribes that 1st level heir to the current strong man (orc?) would have to prove himself fast, or find his position usurped by a challenger or his tribe melt away to neighboring tribes. Instead, I see tribes lead by high level orcs, with slightly less powerful warbands, and the vast mass made up of those 1-3rd level mooks...
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Post by NukeHavoc »

One thing to keep in mind is that orcs were originally Lawful Evil in alignment, and Greyhawk, being the original campaign setting, retains those assumptions.

I'm not sure when the Chaotic Evil change over came, though I think it arrived with 3rd edition, but I think we should hold true to their LE roots. My thinking on the orcs of the Pomarj was that the major tribes -- those that Mak was able to unify and forge into an imperial army -- are Lawful Evil, while many of the smaller tribes are more chaotic. Using that assumption, you could have more powerful henchmen because ascension would almost always occur according to certain rules. As the leader of a clan or warband, you prize strength and power because you would not want to be associated with weaklings, and would want someone powerful to succeed you should you fall.

As far as elite orcs go, we have the uruk-hai. We haven't done much with them lately, but under 3rd edition I envision them as orc paragons with levels of some exotic classes (non-standard PHB classes) to represent orc-centric training.

As far as Turrosh Mak's level, I'm assuming he's epic, and that his followers would be uruk-hai of the first order.
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Post by setanta14 »

I found this about a year ago (link from Canonfire!), where someone went through the trouble over converting (and statting out quite a few) of Oerth's NPC's:

Theg Narlot/ Turrosh Mak; NE; Ftr10/Rog2/Asn6... so 18th + that Pomarjian artifact (skull of the last Baron of Suderham)

NukeHavoc wrote:One thing to keep in mind is that orcs were originally Lawful Evil in alignment, and Greyhawk, being the original campaign setting, retains those assumptions.

I'm not sure when the Chaotic Evil change over came, though I think it arrived with 3rd edition, but I think we should hold true to their LE roots. My thinking on the orcs of the Pomarj was that the major tribes -- those that Mak was able to unify and forge into an imperial army -- are Lawful Evil, while many of the smaller tribes are more chaotic. Using that assumption, you could have more powerful henchmen because ascension would almost always occur according to certain rules. As the leader of a clan or warband, you prize strength and power because you would not want to be associated with weaklings, and would want someone powerful to succeed you should you fall.

As far as elite orcs go, we have the uruk-hai. We haven't done much with them lately, but under 3rd edition I envision them as orc paragons with levels of some exotic classes (non-standard PHB classes) to represent orc-centric training.

As far as Turrosh Mak's level, I'm assuming he's epic, and that his followers would be uruk-hai of the first order.
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