Contemplating the Dark Side of the Force

[NukeHavoc]

Hmm. Hmmmmmmm.

Difficult to see, the Dark Side is.

I agree in principle that using the Force to end a sentient life earns you a Dark Side point. Force Lightning = Bad. Force Slamming to death and beyond = Bad (but still totally awesome).

I also agree in principle that sometimes killing a sentient with a lightsaber would earn you a DS point. But not always.

[snip]

Cutting off a Sith Lord's head with your dual-wielded lightsabers? Definitely a Dark Side Point.

With regards to the rest of your post, I agree that it can be situational, though that's part of what makes it so fun to be a Jedi right? You've got the Sith Lord at your mercy ... what do you do? Slice him in half with your lightsaber? Or slice of most of his limbs and leave him for dead near a surging river of lava?

Ultimately, I think it comes down to what works for the story and your character. Either way it could be a great dramatic moment, even if it ends up garnering you a Dark Side Point.

Hmmm. Seems like we're building a consensus on this.

[erilar]

Cutting off a Sith Lord's head with your dual-wielded lightsabers? Definitely a Dark Side Point.

Huh - why? If you're locked in mortal combat and the Sith baddie is trying to do you in?

After reading Bob and Damon's posts, I think I'd have to agree and agree that lightsaber combat should be situational. Again though, our problem lies in how to defend our companions from blaster rifle-wielding lvl 2 mooks without slaughterizing them, given that our tool is an infinitely-sharp laser sword...

Trust me, Ken - I'd considered making a character that could competently disarm using these rules and the Improved Disarm kinda feats. You'd literally need to design the char around it, and it'd take almost all your feats, etc. I decided to not make a one trick pony just because the disarm rule was dumb.

Likewise, one can learn the limb-severing kinda skill later on - at like 9th level. Our chars just don't have the control at our level to use anything but lethal force. It's a dice engine problem to some extent.

[NukeHavoc]

Cutting off a Sith Lord's head with your dual-wielded lightsabers? Definitely a Dark Side Point.

Huh - why? If you're locked in mortal combat and the Sith baddie is trying to do you in?

If he's at your mercy, having yielded to you in combat, you've already sliced off his hands AND there's a Sith Lord cackling at your side egging you on? Yeah, total Dark Side Point. Maybe even two.

[NukeHavoc]

After reading Bob and Damon's posts, I think I'd have to agree and agree that lightsaber combat should be situational. Again though, our problem lies in how to defend our companions from blaster rifle-wielding lvl 2 mooks without slaughterizing them, given that our tool is an infinitely-sharp laser sword...

Honestly, I'm cool with the Luke Skywalker School of Jedi Combat (TM) in which you lay waste to your lightsaber, but without getting into the excruciating details of exactly *how* your doing it (the same is true of the KOTOR video games, IIRC). I don't think that lightsabers are particularly unbalancing in the game -- they're a melee weapon and require you to get close (unless, ahem, you're Zulen). Their great advantage (since blasters do more damage, and have more dice) is their ability to ignore damage reduction.

Indeed, if you needed to take prisoners (or simply didn't want to kill your opponents) it would probably be easier to destroy a mook's weapon with a lightsaber than it would be to try and Force Disarm him. A held/carried/worn object has a Reflex Defense of 10 + Object's Size Modifier + the Reflex Defense of the holder (not counting armor or natural armor bonuses, if any).

So if you think about a blaster rifile (medium weapon) it would be 10 + 0 (medium size) + 12 (assuming a minimally competent mook). That's a DC 22 check. Given a Utf check of 10 to 13 (probably about average for our group) you've got a 50%-60% chance of pulling it off. The weapon itself has 10 hp, so with your 2d8 lightsaber you've got a decent chance of destroying it outright (especially if you've pulled into some feats/talents that allow you to do some extra damage).

I could see Force Disarm being a little easier for Jedi to pull off (if for no other reason than to give lower level Jedi more non-lethal force applications) but at the same time, I think the only time we see it in the movies it was a Sith Lord who did it. So maybe it's not as easy as we think. There could also be some issues with balance at higher levels -- if it's a maneuver that low level characters have a fair chance of doing, then you know that higher level characters would be doing it left and right. And that's not something we really see in the movies either.

Ultimately though, I'm really more concerned/interested in the Dark and Light side of Force powers. Am I right that we've reached a consensus regarding receiving a Dark Side Point if you end someone's life with the Force? (be it intentional or not; e.g. it doesn't matter if you only intended to soften him up a bit; you still kill him, and thus, earn a DSP).

[setanta14]

Seems ok with me... but then again, my character can't access the Force, and thus has no fear of ever gaining a Dark Side point because of this. Burning holes through innocent meat bags... yes, but the Force... no.

Am I right that we've reached a consensus regarding receiving a Dark Side Point if you end someone's life with the Force? (be it intentional or not; e.g. it doesn't matter if you only intended to soften him up a bit; you still kill him, and thus, earn a DSP).

[Jonkga]

Actually, all characters, whether or not they can access the force, get force points to call upon. Similarly, all characters, jedi or not, force-sensitive or not, can earn Dark Side points.

For example, the MagnaGaurds (general Greivous' guards) are droids with Force points, as are R2 and C3PO. And, Boba Fett is an example of a non-Force sensitive character who earned Dark Side points. [All this from their entries in the Saga Core book.]

The Revised Core book, which has room for the extras, has a small sidebar on just this: non-force using characters earning Dark side points. At the very least, it is an indication of how evil they are: when you reach half your Wis in DSPs, you are tainted; reaching fully your whole Wis, you are Evil, and often become a GM character. For living beings, if they later pick up the force sensative feat, through levels in a force using clas or just taking the feat, their accumulated DSPs immediately apply as well.

Just food for thought...

[NukeHavoc]

Actually, all characters, whether or not they can access the force, get force points to call upon. Similarly, all characters, jedi or not, force-sensitive or not, can earn Dark Side points.

Definitely. While Saga spends a fair amount of time talking about how Jedi interact with Dark Side points, all of the guidelines there apply to non-Jedi as well. So if a non-Jedi character murders his way across the galaxy, taking enough DSP to be lost to the Dark Side, he's probably going to cross over to my side of the screen.

In addition to the points you made, DSPs are important for resolving certain talents and Lightside force powers, IIRC. Some of the NPCs you've gone up against so far have had DSPs even they weren't Sith (such as the pirates). For the most part though, I think the non-Force powers DSPs are a little easier to regulate, at least as far as blatantly evil acts go (or even mildly evil ones). e.g. Killing a prisoner in cold blood is likely a DSP (though like Bob said, context is everything).

Good conversation guys!

[setanta14]

Yes... I know this. What I said was JPD can't get Dark Side points FROM USING THE FORCE, since Use the Force is a barred skill for droids. But he certainly could get them from other things that would be "evil".

What is interesting to me is a Jedi Droid that I found in one of the books last week that actually had Jedi levels... they were added simply to give access to some of the lightsaber stuff to simulate what Jedi can do, and didn't allow any other Force abilities.

Actually, all characters, whether or not they can access the force, get force points to call upon. Similarly, all characters, jedi or not, force-sensitive or not, can earn Dark Side points.

For example, the MagnaGaurds (general Greivous' guards) are droids with Force points, as are R2 and C3PO. And, Boba Fett is an example of a non-Force sensitive character who earned Dark Side points. [All this from their entries in the Saga Core book.]

The Revised Core book, which has room for the extras, has a small sidebar on just this: non-force using characters earning Dark side points. At the very least, it is an indication of how evil they are: when you reach half your Wis in DSPs, you are tainted; reaching fully your whole Wis, you are Evil, and often become a GM character. For living beings, if they later pick up the force sensative feat, through levels in a force using clas or just taking the feat, their accumulated DSPs immediately apply as well.

Just food for thought...

[NukeHavoc]

What is interesting to me is a Jedi Droid that I found in one of the books last week that actually had Jedi levels... they were added simply to give access to some of the lightsaber stuff to simulate what Jedi can do, and didn't allow any other Force abilities.

Yeah, that's is interesting. It provides a way for droids (or heck, anyone for that matter) to gain access to Jedi talents like Block and Deflect. Which is cool, if you're willing to burn a level and not pick up Force powers. If memory services, Grevious trained his MagnaDroids to fight Jedi. I haven't looked them up in the Clone Wars book yet, but I wouldn't be surprised to find a level of Jedi there either.

[NukeHavoc]

BTW, I don't know if this book will end up being more fluff than substance (though Scum and Villainy was a similar style book, and was quite good IMHO) but the Jedi Academy Training Manual is coming out in May:

http://www.amazon.com/Jedi-Academy-Trai ... 786951834/

"Written as the ultimate Jedi training manual, The Jedi Academy: Training Manual game supplement reveals the secrets of the Jedi across all eras of the Star Wars saga, from the earliest days of the Old Republic to the Dark Times and the reemergence of the Jedi Order after the fall of the Galactic Empire. It gives players exciting new talents, feats, Force powers, and equipment for their Jedi characters. It also elaborates on the known Jedi fighting styles and provides new ways to build your character around a particular fighting style."

If nothing else, I'm thinking it might provide us with some non-lethal Force powers/talents/etc for our Jedi characters.