Revisiting Dark Side Points

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erilar
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

Hardcorhobbs wrote: As I recall the reason you got the DSP is because you declared it. The argument then was since he saved himself should it be warranted. We ruled yes because despite the outcome you chose the temptation of the darkside.
Well, that's the rub there, isn't it? Did he choose the dark side, or rather simply abandon his normally-peaceful ways in favor of saving his friends' lives? (It may well be that at the time I specifically said that Rade let himself Hulk out in anger - I don't actually remember.) That's the issue that makes this such a tough subject to create a mechanic for.
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setanta14
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by setanta14 »

I'm not so sure I'm too keen on "plot altering" or "narative controlling" use of Force Points... Small alterations of in-game mechanics above and beyond what is already laid out wouldn't bother me too much, but I just don't think that a d20 system is balanced for handling that kind of manipulation... Especially since I don't play characters where the Force is all that important, it seems this would upset the good balance that I think SWSE has well in favor of Jedi/Force- Users, just like older editions suffered from.
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erilar
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

setanta14 wrote:it seems this would upset the good balance that I think SWSE has well in favor of Jedi/Force- Users, just like older editions suffered from.
That's a very good point.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by EvilGenius »

I think it's time for a vote, at least to shake out where everyone's inclinations lay.

I agree with Nate and would prefer a d20-esque solution (ie, swapping a power, extra damage, etc) rather than a Cortex-style solution.
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erilar
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

Agreed.
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Jonkga
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Jonkga »

I'll go on record saying I'm ok with any solution we agree upon. That said, I think my preference would be for an extra die type of system like the Revised Edition used. I think this would help us more easily decide if the Dark Side would be involved, as the player would be choosing to act in order to recieve the "benefit" or not.

I guess that would put me more in the "keep it in the d20 realm" camp than in the "plot point" camp.

Also, I think while we can have some spirited discussions around the table, for the most part I think we are largely on the same page when it comes to adjuticating things like the heroic intentions of our characters. So, ultimately if we just decide to allow folks to decide for themselves and then announce on their turn if they are calling on the Dark Side (allowing of course for the GM to suggest that maybe they forgot to announce that if it seems questionable - which would allow for clarifications such as the one Lance presented above), I think we'll get on just fine.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

Jim, Damon -- any thoughts on this matter?
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Lars Porsenna »

I think I'm stuck on the side that voluntarily gaining a DSP should confer a mechanical benefit. The idea of using force points as Cortex points to alter the story is a bit more abstract than I would like. While it would be cool for Quest to take his DSP and lightsaber in half the baddie, since Quest gets more force points than anyone else in the group (that I know of), does this mean he is remarkably resistant to the Dark Side? Or is just more able to skirt the edge (recall you can trade in a force point to "cleanse" a naughty darkside point)? OTOH, Quest "giving into his rage" and getting a "truestrike" buff (i.e. +20 on his next attack) in exchange for a DSP might be less abusive overall. But this is all speculating on my part,

One thing I am convinced of, after reading through all this, and seeing the discussion: SAGA doesn't really handle the issue of the dark Side very well. It gives you some guidelines, but mechanically there is not much there, especially for "giving into" the Dark Side (IMHO a key feature of the Force!!!). I really wish a Dark Side Sourcebook had come out for the game, like it did for the older edition. Maybe our concerns would have been addressed there.

I have the older D20 DSS if anyone is interested...

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setanta14
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by setanta14 »

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about... Take a DSP for +20 on a d20 roll, etc.

The CL 20 version of Luke from Legacy Era has 3 DSP's...
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

setanta14 wrote:Yeah, that's what I'm talking about... Take a DSP for +20 on a d20 roll, etc.

The CL 20 version of Luke from Legacy Era has 3 DSP's...
I think getting a +20 to a role would require at least 2 DSPs (maybe +10 per DSP?) Getting a +20 is the equivalent of a destiny point, and those are pretty rare in the game economy (relative to Force points).
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setanta14
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by setanta14 »

Sounds like a good plan:

+10 to d20 = 1 DSP (willing)
+20 to d20 = 2 DSP or 1 DP (willing)

Now, this is for making the willing decision to gain a DSP, and the benefit is "spent" immediately, while the DSP remains for determining if you are Light Side or Dark Side. DSP's gained through actions where the player did not intentionally wish to receive an immediate in-game benefit would not follow this rule, yes?

How about these:

Third Wind (2nd Second Wind, even in same encounter) = 1 DSP
Gain additional actions (like another Standard and Move Action) = 1 DSP
Gain a Full Round Action = 2 DSP
Remove Persistent Conditions = 1 DSP/condition

Gain a single Standard Action = 1 FP
Change Initiative order = 1 FP/step (1 to go before the person before you, another to move up again, etc.)
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Jonkga
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Jonkga »

setanta14 wrote: DSP's gained through actions where the player did not intentionally wish to receive an immediate in-game benefit
This is the phraseology that has always bothered me. I'm not so sure that there can be DSP's earned if the player didn't intend for the character to earn them. And, yes, I mean that I don't think the GM should be able to assign them to a character because the GM thinks the player should earn them. If a jedi strikes down an NPC, I don't believe that should automatically earn a DSP ever. It all depends upon in game how that happens, and how the player intended the action. So, sure, the GM could suggest that the player's action seems to warrant a DSP, and ask if that's what the player wants to do before adjuticating, and the player could clarify his character'smotivations (which I think is largely howwe handle it), but I really don't think you can say a particular action always equals earning a DSP no matter the situation.

And, yes, I know this goes against stuff printed in the rulebooks, but that's just my two cents...
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

Jonkga wrote:If a jedi strikes down an NPC, I don't believe that should automatically earn a DSP ever. It all depends upon in game how that happens, and how the player intended the action. So, sure, the GM could suggest that the player's action seems to warrant a DSP, and ask if that's what the player wants to do before adjuticating, and the player could clarify his character's motivations (which I think is largely how we handle it), but I really don't think you can say a particular action always equals earning a DSP no matter the situation.
I think this generally works in our group, because our group is mature enough to handle it. As I think was mentioned earlier in this thread, most of the time it's pretty obvious when you're doing something Darkside-ish with the Force.

The big thing is just reach consensus on what constitutes Dark Side use of the Force. I think we're there now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have the occasional follow up discussion about Force use as the Mandalorian Wars portion of the campaign continues.

I will say that while many of these discussions focus on the Force, it's not *strictly* Jedi we're talking about here. I think the same guidelines can/should apply to non-Force users. e.g.; Shooting a helpless prisoner in the head? Dark side point. Torture? etc.,

We should also keep that in mind when considering bonuses for embracing the Dark Side.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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