Revisiting Dark Side Points

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NukeHavoc
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Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

erilar wrote:Aside from the direction of the plot, I was also having trouble playing a force wizard. While it's okay for any of the combat jedi to chop up any number of bad guys with lightsabers, if Rade did one in with the Force, it meant a Dark Side point?
If folks want to revisit this, I'm cool with that. I think it's a difficult issue to address. On the one hand we have Yoda saying "a Jedi uses the force only for knowledge and defense, never for attack" and then we have all these cool powers in the books that let you attack. :)

The movies and TV series are no help because most of the Force powers are used against droids, and those who do use force powers against the living are almost always Sith. Based on that, killing someone with the Force does seem DSP-worthy. But then flip it over to the KOTOR video game, and you're slamming people left and right with Force powers, often killing them in the process. So in that case, no DSP.

Given that we're headed into the Mandalorian Wars, and that we'll be seeing a lot of Force powers in play against the bucketheads, I think it's worth revisiting. I think the only one who's actually gotten a DSP from using Force powers aggressively is Zulen, though in almost every case he would have gotten a DSP anyway because he was purposefully giving into his rage. I think Rade and Quest might have gotten a DSP each over the course of the campaign, but to Lance's point, avoiding the DSPs by not using your force powers is just as big an issue as getting the DSPs in the first place.

I do think the Revised Core Rules (the previous edition of Star Wars) handled this better by giving Force users a quick-and-easy path to power by giving them bonus dice to use in their Force checks (IIRC), thus providing a very real temptation for using Dark Side Points.

I don't think we have a good temptation mechanic for DSPs in Saga Editon as it stands now. I'd be fine with allowing for non-gratuitous force killing if we could come up with a good DSP alternative, just so the threat (and temptation) of the Dark Side is still there. I think this becomes even more important during the Mandalorian Wars, where so many Jedi end up turning to the Dark Side.
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erilar
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

This subject is a hard thing to capture and apply rules to. In the end, the real thing we're trying to rule on is intention and emotion, which is really difficult.

As for the movies, the Jedi masters are talking out of both sides of their head (and not just the Ithorians, hehe). Mace Windu doesn't think twice about lopping off Jango's head, and he wasn't a Sith warrior. Sure, it was self-defense, but a jedi as powerful as Mace Windu probably could have taken a non-lethal tact had he chosen to do so.

IMO, there is a line where even the jedi will apply lethal force, much like a modern policeman. Their ethos and mandate is to capture/subdue a dangerous person if possible, but at the point where more life is at risk, the gloves come off by necessity. Remove the threat to protect further suffering and loss of life, etc.

The hard part will be for a GM to rule on intent. However, as the guys on the Order 66 podcast have said, if the player even has to argue his position, the action likely warrants a DSP. There will always be a table will of witnesses present to vote their opinion, and we don't have an "us vs. the GM" kind of crew that would would make that approach problematic.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by EvilGenius »

I agree that the games and movies and novels seem to contradict each other on several points.

I can see a clear distinction between using a lightsaber and using the Force to kill someone. The lightsaber is just like a blaster. It's tech, not Force. Jedi wield them by tradition and because of their connection to the Force they can be really good at it. But so can JPD14, completely without the Force. So could General Grievous (sort of).

But using the Force itself to hurt or kill someone is abiguous. Force lighting is Dark Side but Force Slam is not? They both use the Force to hurt or kill people. I think the intention is probably still the relevant factor and we could certainly argue that the inherent nature of the Force manifests differently depending on your intention and internal state when you unleash it. So if you're in a rage, the Force manifests as Lightning. If you're simply resolute and defending yourself, the Force manifests as Force Slam (Get! Away!!).

From a game standpoint, I think that makes it a lot more difficult to play a Force Wizard type character. I think we could loosen up the rules a little so that using a Lightside or Neutral power doesn't necessarily give you a Dark Side point.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by EvilGenius »

I also think that we could implement a different mechanic for being temped by the Dark Side. If you just really really need/want to put some aggression into it, summon the Dark Side and increase the damage type by one die (d6 becomes d8, d8 becomes d10, d10 becomes d12). Talk about the quick and easy path!

Or we could represent the temptation of the Dark Side in a different way. We could allow you to temporariliy substitute one of your non-dark side power with a force power with the Dark Side descriptor. For example, swap out Far Seeing with Force Lightning. You're in a big fight, the Mando's are winning. You feel your anger and aggression surging as your companions fall around you and all of the sudden Force Lightning erupts, severely wounding the attacking Mandalorians. Still in the grip of your rage, you use the Force to grab the Mandalorian commander by the throat and choke the life out of him.

Yeah, I think that could be a few Dark Side points. :)
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

When Jon and I were talking about this, he mentioned the idea of taking the story game route and basically saying that Dark Side Points were an in-game currency for editing the story. So as Quest Fios fought the devolved Zebians of the Lost Temple, he could have desperately reached out to the Dark Side and slaughtered all of his opponents as he embraced his rage. Then it's just a question of scale -- I'd probably say 2 dark side points for something like that.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:When Jon and I were talking about this, he mentioned the idea of taking the story game route and basically saying that Dark Side Points were an in-game currency for editing the story. So as Quest Fios fought the devolved Zebians of the Lost Temple, he could have desperately reached out to the Dark Side and slaughtered all of his opponents as he embraced his rage. Then it's just a question of scale -- I'd probably say 2 dark side points for something like that.
I like this approach in theory but in practice I can see a lot of arguments over what you can accomplish narrativly and how many points it should cost.

IMO, increasing damage dice or swapping out powers has the advantage of being easy to apply and adjudicate and won't allow a single character to monopolize the playing time trying to persuade the GM to allow his action or defending his actions.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:IMO, increasing damage dice or swapping out powers has the advantage of being easy to apply and adjudicate and won't allow a single character to monopolize the playing time trying to persuade the GM to allow his action or defending his actions.
Just to play devil's advocate, the key to this sort of thing working is agreeing in advance to how much a DPS gets you. For example, here's how Cortext does it:

COST
1-2 Inconsequential: This is the bar that serves that particular kind of wine you always liked.
3-4 Minor: This is also the bar where Riga, the gossip and local rumor monger, likes to hang out.
5-6 Moderate: You seem to recall this bar has rooms for rent upstairs, with windows right at the level you'd need to swing across to the guardhouse without being seen
7-8 Significant: Aren't the guards usually in this bar at the same time every night, practically leaving the guardhouse wide open?
9-10 Major: Why, it looks as if the last person to occupy this room was a wizard. He's left his invisibility potions and everything.
11+ Defining: Did I saw wizard? I meant incredibly powerful and helpful dragon.

Of course, this is a key concept in Cortex, so you get a lot more Plot Points, but even so, 11 would be using up everything you had and all but ensuring that you'd be toast the next time you got into combat (since plot points are also used to save your bacon).

I think you could probably knock out similar thresholds for DSPs but for Saga Edition it likely would be a lot cleaner to just say spend 2 DSP to "increase all damage dice by one step" or spend 3 DSP to substitute a dark side power for a regular power you know.

That said, I think you'd also want some mechanic so that non-jedi could also give in to the Dark Side. Maybe you could do the same, but with weapon damage (e.g. increase all your damage dice one step as you give into your rage).
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by setanta14 »

All I know is Yoda totally force-slammed the two Senatorial/Imperial Guards against the wall when he went to confront Palpatine to knock them, at the very least, unconscious a long time... I doubt this earned him any DSP's.

I'd use the WWYD rule... If he's done it, no DSP's
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

I had a big old post, then something occurred to me... has anyone been paying attention when a character is "killed"? You only "kill" someone if the attack that knocks them unconscious also beats their damage threshold. Do the slams etc. do that much damage? Or are we assigning DSP's where none should have been?
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

I dunno. I'd always assumed that if I took an NPC to 0 HP, I done kilt them. So, I always backed off and let Quest lightsaber them at that point, hehe!

The only DSP I ever took was voluntary, because Rade gave in to nerd rage and chucked a dude off a high bridge. :P He actually saved himself, but the intent was there.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

erilar wrote:I dunno. I'd always assumed that if I took an NPC to 0 HP, I done kilt them. So, I always backed off and let Quest lightsaber them at that point, hehe!
Yeah. I definitely agree something needs to change, I was just wondering. I'd actually be in favor of something like the cortex system over our current house rules. I think as long as the GM and player negotiate it ahead of time it should prevent arguments.
erilar wrote:The only DSP I ever took was voluntary, because Rade gave in to nerd rage and chucked a dude off a high bridge. :P He actually saved himself, but the intent was there.
What? Who made that happen? :p
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by erilar »

Hardcorhobbs wrote: What? Who made that happen? :p
If I remember right, it was Zulen, Quest, and I fighting a holding action on a very high bridge. All of us had taken some pretty serious wounds and it was looking dicey. One of the others suffered a particularly nasty hit, and perhaps went down (blowing a Force cookie to stay breathing). Rather than see his friends killed, Rade finally had enough and started flinging baddies over the side of the bridge with Move Object...

This is the perfect example of a situation where I personally don't think the action warranted a DSP. We were in very mortal danger, he wasn't torturing them or specifically employing a Dark Side force like lightning, and he hadn't given into rage. He'd simply made the decision that it was time to do or be done.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

erilar wrote:This is the perfect example of a situation where I personally don't think the action warranted a DSP. We were in very mortal danger, he wasn't torturing them or specifically employing a Dark Side force like lightning, and he hadn't given into rage. He'd simply made the decision that it was time to do or be done.
I was kidding because I was GMing... ;)

As I recall the reason you got the DSP is because you declared it. The argument then was since he saved himself should it be warranted. We ruled yes because despite the outcome you chose the temptation of the darkside.

That said, I think what you're getting at now is should you have thought that your only option was to turn to the darkside to push him off the bridge? I would say no! If it was a bull rush instead of a force slam the answer would have been no. If the guy was cut in half by a lightsaber it would have been no. Why can't a Jedi in a life or death situation use the force to defend themselves?

At the time I think we agreed on the force house rule because the impression was that Jedi could do a ton of damage with the force powers. Looking back I think a lightsaber specialist, or a solder could do just as much damage. So yes, I think we really need to drop the current DSP house rule and come up with something better (in my case I'm seconding the cortex like system).
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by EvilGenius »

I agree that we should drop the current rules for DPS and institute something different. I'm okay with the Cortex approach, in theory. But here's a question: what prevents the bad guys from using this same model against us? You can be a Sith without being maxed out on Dark Side points. Does this mean that the bad guys who are losing can 'edit' things against us? I'm guessing probably not but then that seems a little wierd to me. Yeah, we're special and the heroes and blah blah, but this system means that we can be automagically more powerful than any Sith who opposes us.

And if the bad guys CAN 'edit' things that leaves things open for the GM to overule our successes, right?

I'm not sure about this approach. I guess it's okay if everyone agrees to be all reasonable and stuff. But I'm still slightly concerned about this.
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Re: Revisiting Dark Side Points

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:But here's a question: what prevents the bad guys from using this same model against us? You can be a Sith without being maxed out on Dark Side points. Does this mean that the bad guys who are losing can 'edit' things against us? I'm guessing probably not but then that seems a little wierd to me.
No, this would be a PC only thing. In most story games mechanics like Plot Points are a way of letting player characters assume narrative control of the story. It's a chance to riff on the larger plot, introduce new twists, etc. The GM doesn't need to assume narrative control; most of the time he has it by default.
Yeah, we're special and the heroes and blah blah, but this system means that we can be automagically more powerful than any Sith who opposes us.
Typically the GM retains veto power. Plot points (or plot-driven DSPs) are not meant to be an "I win" button for the PCs. And plus, it has to be done with some narrative flair; it's not just a question of "I summon a +10 Lightsaber of Sith Hacking!".

So perhaps Quest Fios might have given into his desperation and let his rage overcome him on Zebulon Prime. Frustration at his friends for failing to help, anger at the government for refusing to act to save innocents, rage at the reptilian monstrosities for standing in his way. He reaches out with the Force, feeling the blood pulsing through each creature's brain and squeezes, causing each creature's head to explode. Covered in gore, the blood of the creatures all around him, he let his lightsaber go silent and stepped toward the last portal stone, his soul a little darker...

It may be that the best way to do this would be to balance it by allowing Force points to be used for story editing as well (something that we've kicked around before). So you have both a Light side AND a Dark side option.

With the light side, maybe he's spend a bunch of Force points to cause the T-Rex analogue hunting the Zebian forests arrive at the temple and begin devouring its favorite prey, the reptilian creatures. Meanwhile, Quest is able to make his way to the last portal stone, activate it, and leap through the resulting Gateway...

A lot of times, the rule of cool (or better yet, the rule of cool stories) is in effect. Does it make sense for your character? For the story? Then run with it!
I'm not sure about this approach. I guess it's okay if everyone agrees to be all reasonable and stuff. But I'm still slightly concerned about this.
I don't remember if you've had a chance to play any of the games that use this mechanic; I think if you had, you'd feel better about it. Maybe we should run another Serenity or Battlestar one-shot. (though this time I promise there won't be any stealth cylons waiting to kill Cory's character...)

Or maybe we bang out some quick force point/DSP guidelines and try a one-shot Clone Wars adventure.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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