Time, Training and Professions

The Obsidian Bay campaign.
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NukeHavoc
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Time, Training and Professions

Post by NukeHavoc »

Something I've been thinking about for a while is how the passage of time has changed in our campaign since we went from 2nd Edition to 3rd edition.

Under 2E, we had a training system where folks had to spend one week and something like 100 GP per level gained to realize their level up benefits. It was a very old school kind of thing to do, but it did provide the party with a lot more realistic downtime AND allowed the campaign's timeline to advance at a more natural pace.

With 3E, we ditched all that. At the time, I think people liked the instant rewards of leveling up without training, but it has resulted in the campagn’s temporal progress slowing to a crawl. For example, there are 27 or so episode of Dark City over two years, but the campaign timeline has only advanced about three months, if that.

The other side effect is that the campaign jumps from story to story without much downtime ‘cause, well, there isn’t a whole lot of reason for downtime. Now, that’s partly a DM thing; GMs could easily insert a two week or month delay between adventures, but I think incorporating training time would a) make those breaks more organic and b) give other characters who aren’t training time to work on their own projects (professions, crafting, magic items, etc.)

I don’t know that we need it to be a week per level, and I’m not arguing in favor of a 100 gp-per-level fee (under 3E, we don’t need the gold sink the way we did in 2E) but some sort of delay – maybe 1 day per level? – seems appropriate.

What do you think?
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

I don't know. It seems rather arbitrary to impose a "training time" to level up when in most cases the characters don't need actual training. The ruleset seems to have time built in for magic item creation, learning spells, and all things magical. That works for wizards, but for sorcerers and religious types, they don't need to study for level advancements, just pray or whatever. And, non-magic users, like fighters, might train a bit at the local military establishment, but guild-less rogue certainly don't have someone training them in their skills. In fact, the rules seem to indicate that the leveling up is the result of the previous adventure, where the characters used their skills, and therefore became better at them.

If you are concerned about the timeline, we can simply add more time between each adventure, on the premise that extraordinary "adventure" type things don't happen all the time. However, I liked the fact that Dark City seemed more realistic, because the days passed like they would if our characters were actually living them out in OB. Once the characters are established, we can certainly fill in the time between adventures with stuff, as with Gruffudd working at the fencing school at any time there is no adventure to go on, or Erithacus simply trying to get work on any day he isn't actively making a name for himself as a new hero on the block (oh, oh, oh, oh).
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

mmm. I'm not super sure I want to go back to the training days. I think there are plenty of ways to insert downtime. Probably the best is by having a more detailed calendar that shows when some things are happening in the city. That way we can say "we're delaying until after this festival" or whatever.
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

I agree with Jon and Bob. There are other ways to include downtime, like arbitrarily saying after a specific adventure "we take 2 weeks off, etc" I DO NOT want to go back to the "training" concept as I'm with Jon. Even moreso I always thought it was unrealistic and while it created downtime, it was extremely inconvenient: "Scrappy can't participate in the next adventure session because he's training."

No, as a group, deciding what sort of downtime we have is better. Even moreso maybe before or after every "adventure arc" the DM rolls a 20 sider and that's how many days we have before "events..."

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Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:No, as a group, deciding what sort of downtime we have is better. Even moreso maybe before or after every "adventure arc" the DM rolls a 20 sider and that's how many days we have before "events..."
That's a little *too* random for me. :) I think you could make an argument that new class abilities and feats require training (indeed, some feats would be much cooler if you had to learn them at the feet of a sensei) but I'm cool with whatever the group decides. I'd just like to have more of a pause between adventures.

Having Cory's character around could help with that (Seamus sails home to Coral Cove; you've all got two weeks downtime as he helps bring the latest catch to Obsidian Bay...)
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

I'm in favor of downtime, and I've tried to implement training in my games. Unfortunately I have come up with anything concrete. You have to worry about costs, balancing it with other classes, and putting the training in convenient spots in the game. You do not for instance want someone to go "level time" in the middle of an arc with a time frame.

What I think works best is just put some time in between games at the end of an arc. It's then assumed fighters are training there, characters can commission items, wizards can scribe scrolls, etc. This brings up another question as to how much should be spent on food, lodging, etc during that time... but thats another argument.

So I think some downtime between arcs would be helpful, but anything more than that could become a headache.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:Even moreso I always thought it was unrealistic and while it created downtime, it was extremely inconvenient: "Scrappy can't participate in the next adventure session because he's training."
I'm not interested in that either, which is why I suggested a day per level rather than a week (which is where we ran into trouble before).
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Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:mmm. I'm not super sure I want to go back to the training days. I think there are plenty of ways to insert downtime. Probably the best is by having a more detailed calendar that shows when some things are happening in the city. That way we can say "we're delaying until after this festival" or whatever.
Yeah, I think it's good for people to have a sense of time, which is something that the Greyhawk-fluent GMs can focus on. I liked the approach we were taking with having different magic item sales associated with the festival weeks (e.g. the Brewfest potion sale). Seasonal bazaars of the bizarre appeal to me.
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Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:
Lars Porsenna wrote:Even moreso I always thought it was unrealistic and while it created downtime, it was extremely inconvenient: "Scrappy can't participate in the next adventure session because he's training."
I'm not interested in that either, which is why I suggested a day per level rather than a week (which is where we ran into trouble before).
I remember this being a fairly common occurance. But even at a day/level, there will be times when you can't level between parts 1&2 of an story arc. I don't think it's worth the extra hassle to reinstate.

However, one thing I think WOULD enhance the game a little is to implement a training requirement for unusual prestige classes, or to begin a non-standard base class or unusual feats (like the lightbringer feats from Ravenloft, for example).

I'm not thinking of anything super formal, but flavor text/roleplaying opportunities are enhanced if we have to occasionally travel to Greyhawk City or an exotic locale before introducing a new and unusual option into the game.
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Post by erilar »

Most of the reason the Dark City timeline crawls is simply the nature of the campaign - we roleplay/detail *everything*. Characters aren't simply hanging out at an inn in between "adventures", they are going about their daily business and we're playing that time out.

Re. training, I don't see why a shortened (day scale) required training to level would hurt a lot. It opens up new roleplay and background-generating opportunities as we find out who's training with who and all that.

I would personally recommend one half day of intense training per level. That seems a reasonable amount that won't leave higher level adventurers out of circulation when other things are going on. Comparing this time frame with supplemental training we attend in our real-world professions seems reasonable. In essence, I'm talking about modeling the "learning of new tricks" here and not so much a continuing pattern of training (i.e. learning a new feat, class ability, or spell). The guru looks at you and intones, "Ahh, young warrior - you have returned. I think you are now ready to learn the Spring Attack style."

I'm not sure I advocate paid training, but if so I'd probably argue for wizard training to be "free", because they are already paying for spells and spellbooks - a very considerable expense compared to that required of other classes. Much of their academic study could probably also be solitary.

I could see classes with any martial or sorcerous skills requiring paid training though - they would require a mentor/instructor. The payment could take many real-world forms, but would represent time and resources spent and not necessarily hard coin dropped in someone's palm.
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Post by Jonkga »

What about, then, leveling mid adventure, far from the throng of the city. Like say when the original Dark City gangstas went to that long dungeon crawl away from the city. If someone levels up there, are we going to say they can't use the benefit of the new level until the group returns and trains? I don't think that's something we want to do.

I'm in favor of training time only as a way to flavor our roleplaying, not as another mechanic to make the rules more unwieldy. We can always use training as something our heros do in the city between adventures when we can't think of anything else for them to do. But, if it gets in the way of the gaming we want to do, then I'm not for it.
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Jonkga wrote:What about, then, leveling mid adventure, far from the throng of the city. Like say when the original Dark City gangstas went to that long dungeon crawl away from the city.
I don't think they ever got more than a day away from the city, though it may have seemed that way at the time. :)
If someone levels up there, are we going to say they can't use the benefit of the new level until the group returns and trains? I don't think that's something we want to do.
I don't see a particularly compelling reason for people to suddenly gain feats or skills in the middle of a dungeon crawl, but I don't feel strongly about them not doing it either. I personally don't like people leveling up in the middle of a play session, but that's probably just me.
I'm in favor of training time only as a way to flavor our roleplaying, not as another mechanic to make the rules more unwieldy. We can always use training as something our heros do in the city between adventures when we can't think of anything else for them to do. But, if it gets in the way of the gaming we want to do, then I'm not for it.
I'm not looking for something overly mechanical, more something that adds flavor and a little more depth to the game. I personally like the idea of Kerth going to the Temple of Pelor and studying from the Book of Light, which combined with his experiences suddenly unlocks new insights into the nature of the Sun God.

But in order for such a thing to work, you'd need to do that whenever you've got downtime. e.g. Scrappy isn't spending a couple of days fiddling his thumbs and contemplating his navel; he's training at the Professionals Guild.

I particularly like this idea at lower levels (say sixth or lower) as it fosters the whole master and apprentice thing. That said, we've already got that going in the campaign with Corash and Vargas' arcane masters, and to a lesser extend with Gruffud at the Golden Swordsman Academy.
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erilar
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Post by erilar »

NukeHavoc wrote: I don't see a particularly compelling reason for people to suddenly gain feats or skills in the middle of a dungeon crawl, but I don't feel strongly about them not doing it either. I personally don't like people leveling up in the middle of a play session, but that's probably just me.
I don't see any reason that chars can't figure out a new trick organically through adventuring. They try something new in a fight, it works out spectacularly, and they add it to their repertoire.

I'm also fond of characters leveling up mid-adventure. I was allowing it in Ravenloft only because we needed more combat prowess desperately. Don't expect it in Dark City.

I also agree with Jon - whatever we decide, it should not be burdensome. Still, I see no real reason that a character couldn't wait to level until returning to civilization. The party will typically need to make frequent town pitstops - this is just one more. Campaigns with goals way out in the sticks (like Ravenloft or Return to the ToEE) could pose training problems though.
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