So I need a new Dark City character ....

The Obsidian Bay campaign.
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

"Sir Kato": Male Human Clr3/Pal2/Exp1; CR 6;HD 1d6+3d8+2d10+6; hp 39; Init -1; Spd 20 ft/x3;
AC 20 (+8 armor, +3 shield, -1 dex), touch 9, flat-footed 20;
Base Atk/Grapple +4/+4;
Full Atk +5 One-handed (1d6;20/x2, Masterwork light mace), +4 Two-handed (1d8;20/x3, Spear);
SA&SQ Aura of Law(Ex), Aura of Good(Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Restricted Spells, Turn Undead(Su), Code of Conduct, Detect Evil(Sp), Smite Evil(Su), Divine Grace(Su), Lay on Hands(Su);
SR 0; AL LG;
SV Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +11;
Str 10(+0), Dex 8(-1), Con 12(+1), Int 16(+3), Wis 14(+2), Cha 16(+3);

Skills: Concentration¹ +6, Decipher Script +7, Diplomacy¹ +23, Gather Information¹ +14, Heal¹ +7, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Knowledge (Legal System) +9, Listen¹ +6, Search¹ +9, Sense Motive¹ +10, Spot¹ +6.

Feats: Investigator (PH 96), Negotiator (PH 98 ), Glorious Weapons (CD 82), Noble Soul (Dmag 315/54).

Turn Undead(Su): Can turn undead 6 times per day. A turning check is made on 1d20+5; turning damage is equal to 2d6+6 on a successful check.
Detect Evil(Sp): At will, as the spell.
Smite Evil(Su): 1 time(s) per day, you can add +3 to your attack roll; if the creature you strike is evil, you inflict an extra 2 points of damage.
Divine Grace(Su): Add +3 to all saves.
Lay on Hands(Su): As a standard action, you can heal yourself or someone else. You can cure a total of 6 points of damage per day. These points can also be used to harm undead.

Equipment:
+1 Half Plate
+1 Hv Steel Shield
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to Chr based checks)
Hat of Disguise
Boots of Elvenkind
Belt of Truestrike (Truestrike spell on command)


Total spent: 12,770 gp
Last edited by EvilGenius on Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

So for the character build, I took Expert class at first level, giving him investigative skills like search, sense motive diplomacy, knowledge (legal system) and such.

Then I went with 3 levels of cleric (so I second level spells), then 2 of paladin.

For feats, I took 2 skill feats, 1 combat feat and 1 mixed skill/save feat.

Magical equipment is basic armor and then skill enhancers.

For a cleric/paladin, this character is all about the roleplaying and skills. He's got very good knowledge skills, a great Gather Info score and an astronomical Diplomacy score. So I envision Kato being very good at finding out what's going on in OB.

Kato isn't a combat monster, nor is he a healbot or turn&burn cleric. He'll never match up to Gryyfudd in combat or have the healing abilities that cory's favored soul can bring to bear. I don't think he'll be completely ineffective in combat, like Prug, but if Kato ever becomes the front line fighter the party's probably in trouble. :)

But he should be fun to play. We'll see.
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

My first thought was ... geez, that Diplomacy skill is insanely high. By way of comparison, Thom's a bard and his Diplomacy check is +12, and his Gather Information is +13. Granted, he's not min-maxed, but I think those are pretty respectable scores for a 6th level character.

My second thought was ... damn, this guy is horribly broken. With that kind of bonus, he'd be the most famed orator in the city, if not the entire Sheldomar Valley!

He's the freaking William Jennings Bryan of Greyhawk.

My third thought was ... well, how crazy is this? I'm assuming his base skill is actually 19, and that heroforge is counting the situational modifiers for Bluff and Knowledge: Nobility (as it is want to do)

Looking at the NPC interaction rules (which I think you'd have to use for a character like this, since it's effectively his 'combat'), if he met a Hostile NPC and got an average roll of 10, his total would be 29 (assuming no synergy from Bluff or Knowledge skills).

The NPC's state would be changed to Indifferent (DC 25). Ok, not so bad. If he got a 20, he's total check would be a 49, just short of what he needs to make that Hostile person Helpful (DC 50) Hmmm. That seems ... crazy. Tracking a falcon on a cloudy day kind of crazy.

If the NPC started as Unfriendly, a 29 would make him Friendly (DC 25). If he critted (DC 40) he'd be Helpful. If he was Indifferent, he'd be Friendly (DC 15). If he critted, he'd be Helpful (DC 30).

All of this is assuming that he'd have time to talk the person in helping him. Otherwise, he could do it as a full-round action with a -10 modifier. In that case, he'd effectively have a 19 on a successful roll. That's not enough to make a Hostile character Unfriendly (DC 2), but it is enough to make an Unfriendly one Indifferent (DC 15).

So I guess what I'm saying is that the characters not quite so broken as it might appear at first glance, though 50% of the time, it's likely that Kato's going to get his way, probably more like 80% if he can bring his Bluff and/or Knowledge skills to bear on the problem. (which gives him just enough extra ranks to make even and Indifferent person Helpful (DC 30; assuming a 10+21 average roll when using Bluff).

From a strictly GMing standpoint (and not as the guy who's character will be upstaged by a man who could talk the city into adopting straw as its monetary standard), I prefer not to have characters who have such maxed out Skill bonuses because it makes creating a suitable challenge for them all that more difficult, and leads to stats inflation (look, it's the world's SECOND MOST PERSASSIVE MAN! AND HE'S IN OBSIDIAN BAY!), GM hackery in the form of a half-dozen stacked spells to try and equal the character bonus (and thus create a suitable challenge) or DM fiat as the frustrated game master simply says "no, you can't convince the mayor to start a land war in Asia".

Having said all that, I'd like to see the Circlet of Perssasion go, and for his skills to be a little more well rounded. Losing the +3 arcane bonus is enough to turn a sure thing into a mostly sure thing, and gives him some room to grow at higher levels; transfering a few ranks to other skill would make him a little more well rounded, and help keep the campaign power level down. I'm not saying don't be exceptional; a +16 to +18 would still yield you impressive results, but still give the character (and the campaign) room to grow as we get into the middle levels.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

Tee Hee!

This is how Kato gets his insane diplomacy score:

6th level makes max skill rank of 9.
Charisma score gives +3
Community Domain for Rao gives +2
Negotiator feat gives +2
Noble Soul feat gives +2
Synergy bonus for Sense Motive gives +2
Circlet of Persuasion gives +3

That's all stackable and the total is +23. :)
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

I suppose I could loose the Circlet and just go with the +20 bonus.

(grumble grumble) :P
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Hardcorhobbs
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Frankly its a problem with the d20 skill system. It's cool, but it often doesn't work as planned. For instance, Joe's 12th level Dwarven wizard (hehe) in George's game rolls on average 30 for her spellcraft check. According to the rules, this means she knows exactly what spell is being cast every single time, regardless of it being on her list, or it being a spell she ever encountered before. Why? She's that well learned that she knows EVERY spell that was ever created? I think not.

I think it's awful that you can get to a level where you no-longer have to roll, you just win. It takes all challenge out that particular encounter, thus forcing the DM to want to avoid the encounter, yet at the same time feel compelled to put it in because the player took the ranks. It's why I generally don't go beyond a check of +10 in any skill.
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:Noble Soul feat gives +2
What's the deal with this feat? I haven't heard of it before. I assume it's a Dragon regional feat?
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:I think it's awful that you can get to a level where you no-longer have to roll, you just win. It takes all challenge out that particular encounter, thus forcing the DM to want to avoid the encounter, yet at the same time feel compelled to put it in because the player took the ranks. It's why I generally don't go beyond a check of +10 in any skill.
I agree. Stuff like this makes me want to throw the 3.5 source book out the window. I'm ok with this in Mutants & Masterminds, because frankly, there are lots of ways around Paladin's crazy high skill ranks. But in D&D I think this is just far too much.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

Did we give Rao the Community domain? I've been using Sean Reyond's extended diety list as a touchstone for this sort of thing, which is basically expanded form the work he did for the Living Greyhawk Gazetter.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/w ... ities.html

It includes the some of the optional domains, and assigns Rao the Law, Good, Knowledge domains. While I see where the domain power fits with Rao, I don't know that the spell list does.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:Did we give Rao the Community domain? I've been using Sean Reyond's extended diety list as a touchstone for this sort of thing, which is basically expanded form the work he did for the Living Greyhawk Gazetter.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/w ... ities.html

It includes the some of the optional domains, and assigns Rao the Law, Good, Knowledge domains. While I see where the domain power fits with Rao, I don't know that the spell list does.
We had talked about it before. The Community domain is from the Spell Compendium.

Noble Soul is a Greyhawk Regional feat from Dragon. It gives you a +1 to Will saves and a +2 Diplomacy check.

I agree that this is generally an aspect of the 3.5 skill system that breaks down at higher levels.

I do also think that Ken's analysis above doesn't take into account situational modifiers that would be working against Kato. Depending on what crazy thing I'm trying to accomplish, that should be pretty high.

But for normal investigative work in the city, trying to find out some info on say, the Cult of the Earth Dragon, yes, Kato should normally be successful in that endeavor.
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

So I take it that this character, as is, will not be acceptable for the Dark City campaign?
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:Did we give Rao the Community domain? I've been using Sean Reyond's extended diety list as a touchstone for this sort of thing, which is basically expanded form the work he did for the Living Greyhawk Gazetter.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/w ... ities.html

It includes the some of the optional domains, and assigns Rao the Law, Good, Knowledge domains. While I see where the domain power fits with Rao, I don't know that the spell list does.
The domain power is calm emotions 1/day and +2 on diplomacy.
I think the spell list at 1st level is bless. i forget 2nd level but it's a standard PHB spell.
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

NukeHavoc wrote:I agree. Stuff like this makes me want to throw the 3.5 source book out the window. I'm ok with this in Mutants & Masterminds, because frankly, there are lots of ways around Paladin's crazy high skill ranks. But in D&D I think this is just far too much.
The problem is skill DC's are static. So the higher you go in level they become easier, and eventually obsolite. There should be some sort of level dependent feature in there. Something like DC = 10 + character level + skill feature. Where the character level is the average level of the party, and skill feature varies depending on the skill/what your trying to accomplish.

This doesn't work for everything, (Like why does it get more difficult to open a simple lock...) and would need much more work than the 5 min it took to think of, but it does carry the challenges into higher levels.
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Hardcorhobbs
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

EvilGenius wrote:So I take it that this character, as is, will not be acceptable for the Dark City campaign?
I wasn't speaking about your character specifically, just the skill system in general. For the record I think it's an awesome character. Perhaps for the DM's sake just re-think a feat or two. (A 6th level character with +18 Diplomacy is still AMAZING!)

I don't have any books so cannot comment about the Community domain. Ken, whats the problem with the spell list?
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

While the points about standard encounters are fine, think of it this way: if he's going to be interacting with the courts, he may be interacting with LAWYERS. What kind of diplomacy, sense motive, etc skills are these guys going to have???

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