So I need a new Dark City character ....

The Obsidian Bay campaign.
User avatar
Hardcorhobbs
Posts: 5423
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Fort Wadsworth

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Lars Porsenna wrote:While the points about standard encounters are fine, think of it this way: if he's going to be interacting with the courts, he may be interacting with LAWYERS. What kind of diplomacy, sense motive, etc skills are these guys going to have???

Damon.
What level are your standard citizens of the city? Not everyone is an adventurer. (Though, this is OB, so perhaps they are...)
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:I do also think that Ken's analysis above doesn't take into account situational modifiers that would be working against Kato. Depending on what crazy thing I'm trying to accomplish, that should be pretty high.
Generally speaking, most situational modifiers are +2 to +4 to the DC, though obviously they can be higher if it's truly nuts. But then again, there are bonuses for role-playing as well (usually about another +2).
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:While the points about standard encounters are fine, think of it this way: if he's going to be interacting with the courts, he may be interacting with LAWYERS. What kind of diplomacy, sense motive, etc skills are these guys going to have???
I'm pretty sure lower than a Diplomacy +23. By way of comparison, a 20th level cleric with an 18 charisma (+4 bonus) and max ranks in Diplomacy (23) would have a base Diplomacy +27. Throw in a synergy bonus or two and you're likely at +31.

Compare that to Kato's +23 at 6th level. And how many 20th level characters do we have in the city?

Honestly, with that kind of modifier, is there anyone in the city he can't argue under the table? Hell, he might be able to out talk Malphas.

Well, maybe not.

If it's a straight up opposed skill check (e.g. court room arguments) he only needs to beat what his opponent gets, plus some bonuses for court room arguments.

Now yes, it's possible to give Kato a run for his money, like so:

Assume a crack lawyer (Expert 10) with max ranks in Diplomacy (10+3=13) and a good charisma (18=+4) and maybe the Negotiator feat (+2). That'd be 13+4+2=+19. Against Kato's +23, well, our verbal hero is still beating him by +4, but at least it's interesting. But that's probably the best legal mind (or lawyer at least) in the city ... and Kato's only 6th level.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:So I take it that this character, as is, will not be acceptable for the Dark City campaign?
I think it's a very cool character concept, and perfect for the campaign, which is probably why I'm balking at the +23 Diplomacy check, because it feels to me like a lot of the challenges we'd throw at you would be forgone conclusions.

I'd say lose the either Negotiator or Noble Soul and the Circlet of Persuasion (or redistribute 3 skill points elsewhere and keep it). That turns the +23 into a +18. That's still pretty high (double the max skill ranks of +9, if we're using that as a baseline for level) but he can still get his way with most common people, he's got room to grow AND we can come up with some creative legal and social situations for him.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:
EvilGenius wrote:So I take it that this character, as is, will not be acceptable for the Dark City campaign?
I think it's a very cool character concept, and perfect for the campaign, which is probably why I'm balking at the +23 Diplomacy check, because it feels to me like a lot of the challenges we'd throw at you would be forgone conclusions.

I'd say lose the either Negotiator or Noble Soul and the Circlet of Persuasion (or redistribute 3 skill points elsewhere and keep it). That turns the +23 into a +18. That's still pretty high (double the max skill ranks of +9, if we're using that as a baseline for level) but he can still get his way with most common people, he's got room to grow AND we can come up with some creative legal and social situations for him.
Hmmmm. Okay, I'll adjust downward a bit (like Munchkin says, it's for game balance :P )
User avatar
Lars Porsenna
Posts: 4778
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Manta, Ecuador

Post by Lars Porsenna »

NukeHavoc wrote:Assume a crack lawyer (Expert 10) with max ranks in Diplomacy (10+3=13) and a good charisma (18=+4) and maybe the Negotiator feat (+2). That'd be 13+4+2=+19. Against Kato's +23, well, our verbal hero is still beating him by +4, but at least it's interesting. But that's probably the best legal mind (or lawyer at least) in the city ... and Kato's only 6th level.
Thing is though Ken, this is Bob we're talking about, so your example is not properly min-maxed. SO we assume a Human Lawyer, at 10th level has 2 feats at 1st level, plus another at 3, 6, and 9 (1/3 levels, correct?), so that's 5 feats to buff his score. At the very minimum, he can take all the diplomacy buffing feats Bob did.

Damon.
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

Lars Porsenna wrote:Thing is though Ken, this is Bob we're talking about, so your example is not properly min-maxed. SO we assume a Human Lawyer, at 10th level has 2 feats at 1st level, plus another at 3, 6, and 9 (1/3 levels, correct?), so that's 5 feats to buff his score. At the very minimum, he can take all the diplomacy buffing feats Bob did.
Right, but that's my point -- I don't want to get into that kind of arms race with Kato. So either he kicks everyone's diplomatic ass, or we scale up the NPCs to meet the challenge; either way things are getting seriously skewed.

But Bob's agreed to tone him down a bit, so it's under control.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Hardcorhobbs
Posts: 5423
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:38 am
Location: Fort Wadsworth

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

*Side Note*

Hehehehe Lawyers, hehe How's OJ doin' Kato? :twisted:
setanta14
Posts: 3880
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:57 pm

Post by setanta14 »

For lawyers and judges, it depends on whether you have one taking a liberal and broad interpretation of the laws, or a conservative and narrow view... oh wait, thats real life.



Lars Porsenna wrote:While the points about standard encounters are fine, think of it this way: if he's going to be interacting with the courts, he may be interacting with LAWYERS. What kind of diplomacy, sense motive, etc skills are these guys going to have???

Damon.
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Post by Jonkga »

EvilGenius wrote:Belt of Truestrike (Truestrike spell on command)
"on command"? Really, no limit per how often? Sounds pretty broken... he'll definitely outclass Gruffudd if he can hit in combat every time he swings...
Last edited by Jonkga on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Post by Jonkga »

EvilGenius wrote:So for the character build, I took Expert class at first level, giving him investigative skills like search, sense motive diplomacy, knowledge (legal system) and such.

Then I went with 3 levels of cleric (so I second level spells), then 2 of paladin.

For feats, I took 2 skill feats, 1 combat feat and 1 mixed skill/save feat.

Magical equipment is basic armor and then skill enhancers.

For a cleric/paladin, this character is all about the roleplaying and skills. He's got very good knowledge skills, a great Gather Info score and an astronomical Diplomacy score. So I envision Kato being very good at finding out what's going on in OB.

Kato isn't a combat monster, nor is he a healbot or turn&burn cleric. He'll never match up to Gryyfudd in combat or have the healing abilities that cory's favored soul can bring to bear. I don't think he'll be completely ineffective in combat, like Prug, but if Kato ever becomes the front line fighter the party's probably in trouble. :)

But he should be fun to play. We'll see.

BTW, my two cents, he sounds like a great character, and right up Bob's alley.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Post by Jonkga »

NukeHavoc wrote:My first thought was ... geez, that Diplomacy skill is insanely high. By way of comparison, Thom's a bard and his Diplomacy check is +12, and his Gather Information is +13. Granted, he's not min-maxed, but I think those are pretty respectable scores for a 6th level character.

My second thought was ... damn, this guy is horribly broken. With that kind of bonus, he'd be the most famed orator in the city, if not the entire Sheldomar Valley!

He's the freaking William Jennings Bryan of Greyhawk.

My third thought was ... well, how crazy is this? I'm assuming his base skill is actually 19, and that heroforge is counting the situational modifiers for Bluff and Knowledge: Nobility (as it is want to do)

Looking at the NPC interaction rules (which I think you'd have to use for a character like this, since it's effectively his 'combat'), if he met a Hostile NPC and got an average roll of 10, his total would be 29 (assuming no synergy from Bluff or Knowledge skills).

The NPC's state would be changed to Indifferent (DC 25). Ok, not so bad. If he got a 20, he's total check would be a 49, just short of what he needs to make that Hostile person Helpful (DC 50) Hmmm. That seems ... crazy. Tracking a falcon on a cloudy day kind of crazy.

If the NPC started as Unfriendly, a 29 would make him Friendly (DC 25). If he critted (DC 40) he'd be Helpful. If he was Indifferent, he'd be Friendly (DC 15). If he critted, he'd be Helpful (DC 30).

All of this is assuming that he'd have time to talk the person in helping him. Otherwise, he could do it as a full-round action with a -10 modifier. In that case, he'd effectively have a 19 on a successful roll. That's not enough to make a Hostile character Unfriendly (DC 2), but it is enough to make an Unfriendly one Indifferent (DC 15).

So I guess what I'm saying is that the characters not quite so broken as it might appear at first glance, though 50% of the time, it's likely that Kato's going to get his way, probably more like 80% if he can bring his Bluff and/or Knowledge skills to bear on the problem. (which gives him just enough extra ranks to make even and Indifferent person Helpful (DC 30; assuming a 10+21 average roll when using Bluff).

From a strictly GMing standpoint (and not as the guy who's character will be upstaged by a man who could talk the city into adopting straw as its monetary standard), I prefer not to have characters who have such maxed out Skill bonuses because it makes creating a suitable challenge for them all that more difficult, and leads to stats inflation (look, it's the world's SECOND MOST PERSASSIVE MAN! AND HE'S IN OBSIDIAN BAY!), GM hackery in the form of a half-dozen stacked spells to try and equal the character bonus (and thus create a suitable challenge) or DM fiat as the frustrated game master simply says "no, you can't convince the mayor to start a land war in Asia".

Having said all that, I'd like to see the Circlet of Perssasion go, and for his skills to be a little more well rounded. Losing the +3 arcane bonus is enough to turn a sure thing into a mostly sure thing, and gives him some room to grow at higher levels; transfering a few ranks to other skill would make him a little more well rounded, and help keep the campaign power level down. I'm not saying don't be exceptional; a +16 to +18 would still yield you impressive results, but still give the character (and the campaign) room to grow as we get into the middle levels.
Well, yes, Ken, I do think he's incredibly min/maxed, but I don't think you should overlook the fact that this won't apply in all situations. Even according to the NPC interaction rules, they won't always apply. And I don't just mean the arbitrary DM fiat type situations. In real life, there are certainly situations where even though you make the most persuasive argument ever, and even if you sway the feelings of the person you are talking to, the end result doesn't change. With a character like this, I think that's the real thing to watch for - don't allow the rules to dictate that a dice roll decides it if really all the diplomicizing in the world won't help the cause.

And, yes, I think Bob agreeing to bring Kato down a notch helps us to do this, but really, he'll be super useful to the party, but not so uber-broken that the party won't be challenged. At least, not so it appears to me just yet.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Post by Jonkga »

The other thing is, he does venture towards one-trick pony land. Remember, his diplomacy will only be overwhelming in certain situations. In others, it may help, but won't win the day. And, in many other situations, it won't help at all.

For example, if he'd been along with the party before, he might have swayed mudsitter locals even moreso that Prug. And, he might have made some of the thuggish guards think twice about how the treated us. But would he have changed the minds of insane cultists or bloddy axe gang members, I don't think any amount of talk would have helped there,for lots of reasons.

And, with that said, I don't think it's too broken.

However, I'd probably change a feat or magic item to ensure a bit more balance. But that's just my style.

And, it's a moot point as you guys already hashed it out, just throwing my two bits in. :)
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

Jonkga wrote:
EvilGenius wrote:Belt of Truestrike (Truestrike spell on command)/quote]

"on command"? Really, no limit per how often? Sounds pretty broken... he'll definitely outclass Gruffudd if he can hit in combat every time he swings...
It won't work every round. Command word items take a standard action to activate, so I couldn't trigger the effect and then attack in the same round. Because that would seriously be totally broken. :)

So the best I can do is forgo an attack one round and wallop a guy the next round (though my damage is still pretty weak).
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:*Side Note*

Hehehehe Lawyers, hehe How's OJ doin' Kato? :twisted:
:cry: He won't return my calls anymore ..... :cry:

Guess he's still to busy "looking for the real murder". You know, on golf courses and in casinos.
Post Reply