Min/Maxage

The Obsidian Bay campaign.
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EvilGenius
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Min/Maxage

Post by EvilGenius »

So I did a preliminary character build for the elf I was talking about, just to see what he would look like (and perhaps to have as a backup Dark City character).

It's just not turning out too well. My min/maxing instincts are preventing me from really enjoying the build. I was looking at the swashbuckler class with a level or so of wizard, but it's just not working well. :(
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

swashbuckler/wizard doesn't strike me as a bad combo. Wht's not working about the build?
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Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

Well, here he is so far.

"Laelesc: Male Elf(High) Wiz3/Swb3; CR 6;HD 3d4+3d10; hp 37;
Init +2; Spd 30 ft/x4
AC 18 (+5 armor, +3 dex), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Atk/Grapple +4/+4;Full Atk +7 One-handed (1d6;18-20/x2, Rapier), +7 Two-handed (1d8;20/x3, Longbow)
SA&SQ Familiar, Alertness, Enchanter, Grace(Ex), Insightful Strike(Ex)
AL NG
SV Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +6;
Str 10(+0), Dex 15(+3), Con 10(+0), Int 16(+3), Wis 14(+2), Cha 12(+1)
Skills: Balance¹ +7, Bluff¹ +5, Concentration¹ +7, Escape Artist¹ +7, Jump¹ +4, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (arch & eng) +6, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +8, Sense Motive¹ +6, Swim¹ +2, Tumble +7.
Feats: Weapon Finesse (PH 102)², Craft Wondrous Item (PH 92), Scribe Scroll (PH 99)², Well Read (Dmag 315/54), Improved Toughness (MM4 203).
• Racial Abilities +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
• Base land speed of 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision
• Immunity to sleep effects
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against Enchantment spells or effects.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks
• Automatic Searching: Passing within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door entitles you to a free Search check, as if you were actively looking for it
• Favored Class: Wizard
Class Abilities:
• Familiar: You have called a as a magical companion.
¤ Alertness: While the familiar is within arms reach, you gain the Alertness feat(+2 to Spot & Listen checks).
• Enchanter: You are specialized in the school of Enchantment. You can prepare one additional Enchantment spell per spell level each per day.
You gain a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to learn spells from this school. Necromancy and Conjuration spells are prohibited to you.
• Grace(Ex): When wearing light or no armor, and carrying a light load you gain a +1 competence bonus on Reflex saves.
• Insightful Strike(Ex): When wearing light or no armor, and carrying a light load you gain a +3 as a bonus on damage rolls with any light or finesseable weapons. You do not gain this bonus to damage against
creatures immune to critical hits.

Equipment: Mithril Chain Shirt +1, Gloves of Dex +2, Elven Boots, Cloak of Elvenkind, Wand of Magic Missiles (5th lvl so 3 missiles).
Last edited by EvilGenius on Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

He's okay. But he just doesn't feel strong enough in any one area, you know?

His AC is 18. WITH expensive armor. So he's certainly not safe from getting hit AND he has a 10% chance for arcane spell failure.

And once he gets hit, he only has 37 hp, and that's WITH Improved Toughness.

On offense, he's got a +7 to hit and 1d6 damage. That's a fairly good chance to hit, but damage is pretty average.

None of his skills are really outstanding. +8 is about average and that's on knowledge skills.

His saves are decent, not great. +4/+6/+6.

His spell capacity is okay. With the Int bonus and specialization he'd get 4 1st and 3 2nd. That's okay, but count in spell failure chance.

So all in all, he's decent, but not great. I'm a little gun shy after Prug. Prug was pretty good on paper, but not in play. This guy, I dunno. He's not great on paper, I'm concerned about how he'd work in play.
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erilar
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Post by erilar »

Dude, if you really want to min/max, then don't make a multi-classed spellcaster. They suxxors, IMO.
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
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Hardcorhobbs
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Post by Hardcorhobbs »

Out of all seriousness, why not just play a bard? It's a swashbuckler/wizard base class. With the various spat books you can use the music for more magic. Sure, your limited in what you can cast, but you'd be a lot more proficient, and can always call yourself a wizard.
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NukeHavoc
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Post by NukeHavoc »

erilar wrote:Dude, if you really want to min/max, then don't make a multi-classed spellcaster. They suxxors, IMO.
True that. And honestly, multi-classing into wizard or sorcerer rarely makes sense unless you have a few specific spells you want to use. I agree with the bard suggestion; mix things up feat wise and the character might not even really look like a bard.

Speaking of which, I've been meaning to check out the second "Book of Eldrich Might" that Monte put out, which apparently includes a variant bard magic system.
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

NukeHavoc wrote: Speaking of which, I've been meaning to check out the second "Book of Eldrich Might" that Monte put out, which apparently includes a variant bard magic system.
ken, I've got it, and have had it since it came out. The bard system isn't fabulous, but I'll bring it by so you can check it out.
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Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

Bob, I guess you were right that it must be because it offends your Min/Max sensibilities. On paper, this guy still looks more effective than any of the characters I am running right now. I mean, Gruffudd has the same AC and he's the front-line fighter type. And, +8 in a skill looks huge to me, but certainly can't compare to your now-infamous min/maxed +23 diplomacy.

I disagree about the bard. Sure min/max-wise it might work, but elfs are really more the fighter/magic-users, as opposed to the bards.

And, this guy looks to be a pretty effective rogue-type. Wizard levels giving him spells to complement his swashbuckling, so maybe he can mesmerize an enemy so that he and the party can get tactical position, spells to give bonuses to hit and damage, etc.

yes, as a multi-classes mage, he won't be getting wish any time soon, but good spell selection can certainly complement his swishy/swashy-ness nicely.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

Or, you could lower his swashbuckling levels, so that they really only provide that base of "all elves learn to fight good with rapiers and such", and focus more on making him the effective elven mage.

That way, we have an elven mage who isn't in league with the demons and devils of the underworld. And, you know, randomly giving them body parts and such. (just kidding, D.) ;)
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Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
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Lars Porsenna
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Post by Lars Porsenna »

Whenever I play Ftr/MU I usually try to make them into ranged combat machines, which IMHO complements their wizard abilities. So Instead of swashbuckler, I'd take straight fighter and use all my fighter feats for bow feats, etc. This way having a low AC (or dropping armor altogether and relying on Mage Armor, rings, etc) is less of a disadvantage as you'll simply not draw the hits. Also such a character can be made pretty sneaky too, so that works in that vein...

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erilar
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Post by erilar »

Is there a prestige class that would do the trick so you don't lose spellcasting levels but can still pick up some martial skills?
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Jonkga
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Post by Jonkga »

I guess it comes down to the role you want this character to play. Do you want the flamboyant fighter who dabbles in magic, or supplements his martial prowess with spells? Do you want the mage who is better than average at martial pursuits? Do you want his magic and melee to balance out? etc.
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Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

Good comments so far guys, thanks. :)

The role I envisioned for him was an old-school fighter/magic user from back in the day. And I did Swashbuckler since it does a little more for him than straight fighter.

I don't ever see him being a hugely powerful wizard. He knows some of The Art and uses it for both utilitarian purposes and to supplement his martial skills. So every once in a while, when things are down, he can whip off a stunning spell like Sleep or something, and if need be he can Levitate.

But he won't be a ranged monster, raining arrows of doom intersperced with Fireballs and Lightning Bolts.

I didn't really see him as a flamboyant martial character (like many swashbucklers are), but more as an elegent swordsman. Precise. Controlled. So I thought Swashbuckler was better than fighter, but I may rethink that.
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EvilGenius
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Post by EvilGenius »

Well, this is a possible snapshot of this guy at 12th level:

Male Elf(High) Ftr3/Wiz3/Due3/Bld3; CR 12;HD 3d4+3d8+6d10; hp 76;
Init +6; Spd 30 ft/x4;
AC 20 (+10 dex), touch 20, flat-footed 10;
Base Atk/Grapple +10/+10;
Full Atk +14/+9 One-handed (1d6;18-20/x2, Rapier);
SA&SQ Familiar, Alertness, Canny Defense(Ex), Improved Reaction(Ex), Enhanced Mobility(Ex), Bladesong Style(Ex), Lesser Spellsong(Ex);
AL CG; SV Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +8;
Str 10(+0), Dex 18(+4), Con 10(+0), Int 16(+3), Wis 10(+0), Cha 12(+1)
Skills: Concentration¹ +7, Knowledge (arcana) +10, Knowledge (geography) +10, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Swim¹ +3.
Skill Tricks: .Traits: .
Feats: Dodge (PH 93), Mobility (PH 98), Weapon Finesse (PH 102), Scribe Scroll (PH 99)², Well Read (Dmag 315/54), Improved Toughness (MM4 203), Elusive Target (CW 110): Negate Power Attack, Diverting Defense, Cause Overreach, Spring Attack (PH 100).

"Racial Abilities:
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
• Base land speed of 30 feet.
• Low-Light Vision
• Immunity to sleep effects
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against Enchantment spells or effects.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks
• Automatic Searching: Passing within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door entitles you to a free Search check, as if you were actively looking for it
• Favored Class: Wizard
Class Abilities:
• Familiar: You have called a as a magical companion.
¤ Alertness: While the familiar is within arms reach, you gain the Alertness feat(+2 to Spot & Listen checks).
• Canny Defense(Ex): When not wearing armor, you add 3 to your Dex bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon.
• Improved Reaction(Ex): You have an additional +2 to initiative rolls.
• Enhanced Mobility(Ex): When unarmored and not using a shield, you gain an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area.
• Bladesong Style(Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC. If you are wearing medium or heavy armor you lose all benefits of the bladesong style.
• Lesser Spellsong(Ex): When wielding a longsword or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), you can take 10 when making a Concentration check to cast defensively."
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