The Griffin's Crier

The Dungeon Master's Guide II provides quick-and-easy rules for administering justice in a city (pages 101-103). You assign a city a "Law Rank". When there is a trial, you roll a d20 and add or subtract the city's Law Rank from the result. If final score is higher then a 10, then the case is judged in favor of the deserving party, if lower, it goes against them.

Here's what the Law Ranks would look like for Obsidian Bay and Blue:

Obsidian Bay Law Rank: +2
Good-aligned power center +2
One Violent Overthrow -1
Recent legal Code +1
Strength of Enforcement (Moderately Strong) +1
Level of Corruption (Hardly Any) +0
Social Standing: Usually Matters -1

Blue: -4
Recent legal Code +1
Strength of Enforcement (Weak) -2
Level of Corruption (1/3 officials corrupt) -2
Social Standing: Usually Matters -1

I like this system because it's straightforward. I can easily see including a circumstance bonus of -4 to +4 based on evidence, Malphas-style maneuvering, etc.

Magical Medieval Society also discusses the medieval idea of having multiple courts with competing areas of interest. They discuss manorial courts (for crimes committed on a lord's manor and judged by him) feudal law (crimes against or by lords), canon law (religious law) and charter law (civil law).

Traditionally, Obsidian Bay has had a single Chief Justice and a system of judges, though we've never detailed it in anyway. It's associated strongly with the Church of Rao, but I'm thinking that it's an informal, rather than formal, connection.

My thought is that we could have the following:

* The Common Court: Handles civil and manorial cases. This would include crimes, contract disputes, etc.

* The Mayorial Court: Handles feudal cases and is technically overseen by the Mayor. Involves Lord Holders, Lord Traders and aristocrat-types.

* The Canon Court: A triumvirate of leading church officials (Rao, Cuthbert, Pelor) that deals with crimes affecting churches in the city.

What do you think?

[bump]

Any opinions?

I think the Law factor for OB is a bit too high.

I think the level of Corruption in OB should be a little higher, almost at the level of Blue (what makes Blue less lawful is more the attitude of the citizenry).

Also, in OB, the adventurers city, founded by and run by adventurers, do you think that social standing should be that important?

I like the different courts. (when I wrote source material for Living Greyhawk:Keoland, I created backstory where the crown had abolished the cannonical courts, removing that right from the clergy). I can see a higher court to deal with the upper eschelon (not necessarily nobility, but guildmasters, heads of churches, council members etc).

If we change OB's corruption level from hardly any to "Level of Corruption (1/3 officials corrupt)" (which is the next level) then that would add a -2, yielding a total modifier of +0, so with a check DC of 10, you'd have 50/50 chance of a case coming out in your favor (again though, I'm assuming there'd be at least a -2 or +2 circumstance modifier for court wrangling).

I think standing matters. It may not always be traditional standing, but if you're a Lord Holder, a Lord Trader, a well-off merchant, or a respected member of some guild, you're more likely to have things go your way (that is, after all, why you have guilds).

It's not the traditional feudal lord vs. commoner, where class distinctions are strong, but I think it's still a long way off from true equality under law.

Look at it this way, Kolborg cuts a purse string now, and he likely gets fined and/or lashed (likely both). If he's a member of the Blackrazor Guild, well, maybe the fine's a few coppers.

"We have to uphold the law ... but that Guildmaster Malphas, he *knows* people..."

Wouldn't OB be the same, but with more than one violent overthrow?

erilar wrote:Wouldn't OB be the same, but with more than one violent overthrow?

Well, I guess that's a question of how to you do the math.

There were two coup attempts, but only one was successful. The first attempt was by the original Professionals Guild during the Greyhawk Wars of CY 583-584, but it was thwarted and the guild was disbanded.

The second attempt was in CY 587, by the exiled members of the Professionals Guild, who'd created a new secret organization known as the Dark Circle. This time, they allied themselves with the Scarlet Brotherhood, and were successful.

But then the demons came in CY 588 when a door to the Abyss opened in the Blackrazor Guild's basement. Given the total disruption of the city by the demonic invasion, and the year-long rule of the Bloodlord, we could count that as a second overthrow, but since it was evil fighting evil, I kinda view it as one big clusterf**k and leave it as one. But to make things worse in the city, we could count it as two.

I think it makes sense to count it as two overthrows. In the minds of the populace, they have several distinct 'bogeymen': a thieves guild, the scarlet brotherhood and demonic invasion.

We've gone back and forth on the nature of OB, cosmopolitan vs frontier city.

I personally like OB as still having that frontier mentality, even now that they've been staking out their Domain. And it is still a pretty young city, by the standards of the 'Great Cities' of the Flanness.

Regarding corruption in the city, since there's a heavy Raoian influence in the city government (God of Reason), actual governmental corruption is probably fairly minor. In the city guard, it probably depends greatly on what part of the city you're talking about. In the High Quarter, probably no corruption. In the Mudsitters District, probably quite a bit higher.

But corruption in the sense that the guards are shaking down non-violent criminals. Taking extra on fines. Offering extra protection to certain contributing businesses, shaking down anyone they find committing crimes unless they want to 'make and example' of someone. Basically looking out for themselves rather than "protecting and serving".

EvilGenius wrote:Regarding corruption in the city, since there's a heavy Raoian influence in the city government (God of Reason), actual governmental corruption is probably fairly minor. In the city guard, it probably depends greatly on what part of the city you're talking about. In the High Quarter, probably no corruption. In the Mudsitters District, probably quite a bit higher.

But corruption in the sense that the guards are shaking down non-violent criminals. Taking extra on fines. Offering extra protection to certain contributing businesses, shaking down anyone they find committing crimes unless they want to 'make and example' of someone. Basically looking out for themselves rather than "protecting and serving".

I see Rao's influence primarily in the court system.

I think if you're going to have a figure like 1/3 of the city being corrupt, then you need to have a number of government officials be corrupt as well. Now these may complement each other -- for example, the elected representative from the Mudsitters District (whom we've never detailed) might very well have close connections to the city guard in that district, who happily "encourage" people to vote for him.

In another case, the Darksea Guild might use their political and merchantile influence in the wharf district to make sure city guard patrols never visit a certain block of warehouses. Similarly, their connections in the Docks with the harbormaster might allow certain ships to slip through customs without being taxed.

However we define it, I think a 50/50 chance at justice is about right for Obsidian Bay. What do you think of that ratio?

The social pressure due to war with the orcs might also be factored into the "overthrows" category.

erilar wrote:The social pressure due to war with the orcs might also be factored into the "overthrows" category.

The big question basically is ... how fair of a city is Obsidian Bay? What are the chances of being treated fairly if you're charged with a crime or need the help of a city official?

We say it's a frontier city, but what does that mean? Is it like Deadwood, where 90% of the town is in the backpocket of the corrupt salon manager who isn't the elected ruler ... but might as well be. On this scale, that'd probably be a law factor of -8.

A 50/50 chance seems about right to me, but I could see bringing the city's law ranking down to -1 or -2 to reflect the city's difficulties with maintaining a free society when war rages all around it.

The bigger question is how this plays out in the game. In a more corrupt, more lawless city, you can expect more bribes, more quid pro quo, and in some cases, more bureaucracy as people use or ignore law to achieve their ends. IMHO, that would extend from the city into the guilds, particularly the quasi-public service type guilds ("yeah, sure, we can clean those sewers for you ... how about next year? Though maybe I could talk to a guy..." [holds out hand discretely]).