I know both D&D 3e and 4e had discussions on DM combat breakdown. I.e. 10 encounters equals approximately a level. The average gold per encounter at level 1 is 300 gp. So we get: 350 x 10 encounters / 4 players = 750 gp. Therefore: 750 + 150 average starting gold = 900 gp at second level.
There has to be a similar formula that we can derive from SW to figure out second level starting credits.
Star Wars Campaign: what are you thinking of playing?
Also, if folks are interested, I'd be happy to run a character-level playtest to shake out the rules using the standard gold buy for 1st level characters. When I did the playtest for the SCIFI.com review, I created 4th level characters that had the equipment I thought was appropriate rather than trying to figure this out. I'd be interested to see how things shake out at 1st level (and I suspect others who didn't make the playtest would be interested in seeing how it plays).
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
If that is how they derived it, then this would be a good way to balance power/wealth per level for SW too.
Hardcorhobbs wrote:I know both D&D 3e and 4e had discussions on DM combat breakdown. I.e. 10 encounters equals approximately a level. The average gold per encounter at level 1 is 300 gp. So we get: 350 x 10 encounters / 4 players = 750 gp. Therefore: 750 + 150 average starting gold = 900 gp at second level.
There has to be a similar formula that we can derive from SW to figure out second level starting credits.
Hopefully, it will come out in the wash. Ex) your starting blaster and armor may not be ideal for later play, but you can fire from cover. The jedi will have to run into the storm of lasers to melee range, and won't be able to block/deflect shots with any degree of reliability yet?Jonkga wrote:I just worry about spending a few levels hiding behind Jedi with lightsabres while I save up credits to buy a blaster.
Just postulating - no idea.
"This enemy you cannot kill. You can only drive it back damaged into the depths, and teach your children to watch the waves for its return." - Quellcrist Falconer
-
EvilGenius
- Posts: 6719
- Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
- Location: Allentown, PA
I do think that 2nd level characters should not be able to purchase a starship free and clear.
However, I also side a little with Jon here. We want to be able to purchase appropriate equipment. Not the highest level stuff, obviously, but in d&d terms, we want to be able to purchase normal armor (even full plate), a normal array of weaponry and a standard equipment (rope, a backpack, flint & steel, etc).
So in SW, standard armor, a few weapons and regular equipment would be expected at 2nd level. Nothing uber.
However, I also side a little with Jon here. We want to be able to purchase appropriate equipment. Not the highest level stuff, obviously, but in d&d terms, we want to be able to purchase normal armor (even full plate), a normal array of weaponry and a standard equipment (rope, a backpack, flint & steel, etc).
So in SW, standard armor, a few weapons and regular equipment would be expected at 2nd level. Nothing uber.
Here's where I am coming from:
1. we are looking at a game system that is similar to D&D 3e and 4e, but is not the same. Gold does not equal credits, and D&D doesn't have licensed, restricted, military, or illegal items (magic items are not really comparable).
2. I am not looking for any specific items to start with. Sure, I want a heavy blaster and stormtrooper armor, but I want to gain those in game; I don't have to start with them.
3. Everything would be fine if we were starting at 1st level with max gold and guidelines of our own stating only licensed items. We have no progression guide for starting above 1st level, and that is part of what is causing alot of this confusion.
4. We altered the printed D&D progression chart for our OB campaigns to better fit our version of Greyhawk. What do we really want from this campaign? High heroics like the games/movies? More gritty like our D&D stuff? This will go a long way towards answering where we want to come in on credits and items.
5. How quickly do we want to level?
6. I think the SW saga edition is very balanced between Jedi and other classes, really. Lance's point here is a good one (I wouldn't hide behind the Jedi, as they couldn't protect me great yet
).
7. I am really in favor of relying on the books for guidance here. I like not starting with any restricted/military/illegal items. The things I am bringing up (like the 6500 credit ship here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... cle/Mesop4 ) are things I found that I thought pushed the limits or seemed questionable in my mind, but were fully doable according to the starting package we were talking about, and I figured it would be better to talk them out first prior to starting the campaign.
1. we are looking at a game system that is similar to D&D 3e and 4e, but is not the same. Gold does not equal credits, and D&D doesn't have licensed, restricted, military, or illegal items (magic items are not really comparable).
2. I am not looking for any specific items to start with. Sure, I want a heavy blaster and stormtrooper armor, but I want to gain those in game; I don't have to start with them.
3. Everything would be fine if we were starting at 1st level with max gold and guidelines of our own stating only licensed items. We have no progression guide for starting above 1st level, and that is part of what is causing alot of this confusion.
4. We altered the printed D&D progression chart for our OB campaigns to better fit our version of Greyhawk. What do we really want from this campaign? High heroics like the games/movies? More gritty like our D&D stuff? This will go a long way towards answering where we want to come in on credits and items.
5. How quickly do we want to level?
6. I think the SW saga edition is very balanced between Jedi and other classes, really. Lance's point here is a good one (I wouldn't hide behind the Jedi, as they couldn't protect me great yet
).7. I am really in favor of relying on the books for guidance here. I like not starting with any restricted/military/illegal items. The things I am bringing up (like the 6500 credit ship here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... cle/Mesop4 ) are things I found that I thought pushed the limits or seemed questionable in my mind, but were fully doable according to the starting package we were talking about, and I figured it would be better to talk them out first prior to starting the campaign.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
Honestly, I think everything you're talking about can be handled through max starting gold, maybe max +50%.
Licensing fees add a surcharge to the amount the weapon costs, as well as a delay in the amount of time it takes to get it. For "restricted" items, the book states that "only specifically qualified individuals or organizations are technically allowed to own the object. However the real obstacles to ownership are time and money; anyone with sufficient patience and cash can eventually acquire the necessary license."
Since our heroes are coming in at 2nd level, I think it's fine to say they've spent the necessary time to get the licenses (and gear) they need, limiting them to licensed and restricted items. Hell, explaining how they got such things (or justified them) could go into your backstory. The book doesn't actually say what those "qualified individuals" are, so we can easily say that crew attached to a ship can own them, or citizens of Datooine can own them, or whatever.
The fees themselves range from 5% of item cost for licensed to 20% for military to 50% for illegal, so they're not going to break the bank.
Based on 3,000 starting credits, you could get:
1 Blaster rifle (3d8 damage, 1,100 with restricted fee)
1 Combat jump suit (+4 to Ref defense, 1575 with licensed fee)
1 sporting blaster pistol (3d4 damage, 315 with licensed fee)
===
2990 credits
Throw 50% on top of that, and you could get a regular blaster pistol and some miscellaneous gear. Consider the blaster (3d8 damage) vs. the lightsaber (2d8) and I think at least on a damage dealt basis, you're in good hands.
That said, armor isn't as big a deal in Star Wars as it is in D&D; as the book points out, by 5th level most characters have +5 Level bonus to their Reflex Defense, making all but the heaviest armor unattractive. This is in keeping with Star Wars itself; we rarely see our heroes in armor, save to trick someone into believing they're stormtroopers. Like Lance said, I think combat's as much about cover and experience as it is anything else. While the Jedi may be able to block some laser fire, they need to in order to be able to close with their enemies (and, if they do so, they are spending a talent to do it, so they *should* be able to).
IMHO, making medium and heavy armor available at 1st or 2nd level (with its +6 to +10 bonuses to Reflex defense) is going to mean the unarmored characters are seriously outclassed at low levels.
The classes are balanced to be within one or two steps of each other with regard to Fortitude, Will and Reflex Defenses (e.g. the Soldier gets a +2 to Fortitude Defense and a +1 to Reflex; a Jedi gets +1 to all 3, a Scoundrel gets +2 to Reflex and +1 to Will).
If you introduce heavy, expensive armor too quickly, this is going to get thrown out of whack because your Reflex Defense uses your Level or your Armor bonus, whichever is better, as part of its calculation.
So consider this:
Scoundrel 2 (unarmored)
Reflex Defense = 16 (Base 10 + Level 2 + Dex Bonus 2 + Class Bonux +2
Solider 2 (battle armor - 7,000 credits)
Reflex Defense = 21 (Base 10 + Armor 8 + Dex Bonus 2 + Class Bonus +1
That's a +5 spread between our tricky Scoundrel and our stalwart Soldier. It's a +6 for a similarly dexterous Jedi and Noble. The spread's worse -- maybe +7, maybe +8 for someone who's of average Dexterity. Moreover, that Soldier is also getting +2 bonus to Fortitude Defense.
So introducing a lot of credits above any beyond the 3,000-4,500 max starting credits of the non-Jedi classes can have a big impact on things, and seriously skew one of the three major defenses in the game (possibly two, if you include Fortitude in your calculations).
Compare this to the regular progression of things -- at say, 5th level (where such armor might normally show up) our scrappy Scoundrel is now going to have a +5 level bonus to Reflex vs. the Soldier's +8 Armor Bonus (not including any bumps from increasing Dexterity). Now the spread's gone to 2, rather than 5. The Soldier's still got the advantage (especially with the Fortitude bump) but its not nearly as much.
Now this problem does tend to reconcile itself as you get to mid-levels and other character's level bonus to Reflex catches up with the fighter's armor, but I think it's unbalancing at low level to include such things.
This is just armor. I think the same holds true for heavy weapons like heavy repeating blasters or blaster cannons (which, admittedly, also need a military license)
In addition, I think we can accomodiate folks having starships (either through pooled resources or loans) without having to radically increase the amount of starting credits.
That's my 2 credits. Or may be 3,000 credits.
Licensing fees add a surcharge to the amount the weapon costs, as well as a delay in the amount of time it takes to get it. For "restricted" items, the book states that "only specifically qualified individuals or organizations are technically allowed to own the object. However the real obstacles to ownership are time and money; anyone with sufficient patience and cash can eventually acquire the necessary license."
Since our heroes are coming in at 2nd level, I think it's fine to say they've spent the necessary time to get the licenses (and gear) they need, limiting them to licensed and restricted items. Hell, explaining how they got such things (or justified them) could go into your backstory. The book doesn't actually say what those "qualified individuals" are, so we can easily say that crew attached to a ship can own them, or citizens of Datooine can own them, or whatever.
The fees themselves range from 5% of item cost for licensed to 20% for military to 50% for illegal, so they're not going to break the bank.
Based on 3,000 starting credits, you could get:
1 Blaster rifle (3d8 damage, 1,100 with restricted fee)
1 Combat jump suit (+4 to Ref defense, 1575 with licensed fee)
1 sporting blaster pistol (3d4 damage, 315 with licensed fee)
===
2990 credits
Throw 50% on top of that, and you could get a regular blaster pistol and some miscellaneous gear. Consider the blaster (3d8 damage) vs. the lightsaber (2d8) and I think at least on a damage dealt basis, you're in good hands.
That said, armor isn't as big a deal in Star Wars as it is in D&D; as the book points out, by 5th level most characters have +5 Level bonus to their Reflex Defense, making all but the heaviest armor unattractive. This is in keeping with Star Wars itself; we rarely see our heroes in armor, save to trick someone into believing they're stormtroopers. Like Lance said, I think combat's as much about cover and experience as it is anything else. While the Jedi may be able to block some laser fire, they need to in order to be able to close with their enemies (and, if they do so, they are spending a talent to do it, so they *should* be able to).
IMHO, making medium and heavy armor available at 1st or 2nd level (with its +6 to +10 bonuses to Reflex defense) is going to mean the unarmored characters are seriously outclassed at low levels.
The classes are balanced to be within one or two steps of each other with regard to Fortitude, Will and Reflex Defenses (e.g. the Soldier gets a +2 to Fortitude Defense and a +1 to Reflex; a Jedi gets +1 to all 3, a Scoundrel gets +2 to Reflex and +1 to Will).
If you introduce heavy, expensive armor too quickly, this is going to get thrown out of whack because your Reflex Defense uses your Level or your Armor bonus, whichever is better, as part of its calculation.
So consider this:
Scoundrel 2 (unarmored)
Reflex Defense = 16 (Base 10 + Level 2 + Dex Bonus 2 + Class Bonux +2
Solider 2 (battle armor - 7,000 credits)
Reflex Defense = 21 (Base 10 + Armor 8 + Dex Bonus 2 + Class Bonus +1
That's a +5 spread between our tricky Scoundrel and our stalwart Soldier. It's a +6 for a similarly dexterous Jedi and Noble. The spread's worse -- maybe +7, maybe +8 for someone who's of average Dexterity. Moreover, that Soldier is also getting +2 bonus to Fortitude Defense.
So introducing a lot of credits above any beyond the 3,000-4,500 max starting credits of the non-Jedi classes can have a big impact on things, and seriously skew one of the three major defenses in the game (possibly two, if you include Fortitude in your calculations).
Compare this to the regular progression of things -- at say, 5th level (where such armor might normally show up) our scrappy Scoundrel is now going to have a +5 level bonus to Reflex vs. the Soldier's +8 Armor Bonus (not including any bumps from increasing Dexterity). Now the spread's gone to 2, rather than 5. The Soldier's still got the advantage (especially with the Fortitude bump) but its not nearly as much.
Now this problem does tend to reconcile itself as you get to mid-levels and other character's level bonus to Reflex catches up with the fighter's armor, but I think it's unbalancing at low level to include such things.
This is just armor. I think the same holds true for heavy weapons like heavy repeating blasters or blaster cannons (which, admittedly, also need a military license)
In addition, I think we can accomodiate folks having starships (either through pooled resources or loans) without having to radically increase the amount of starting credits.
That's my 2 credits. Or may be 3,000 credits.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
Sorry, that wasn't my intent; I was just trying to make a comment about the effect that a lot of credits at low levels has.Jonkga wrote:Wow, I'm so pissed off after reading that post that I'll comment on it later, after I've had a chance to cool down.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
So with regards to your questions, the vibe I'm getting is kind of a more heroic Firefly ... with Jedi. So a little grit, a lot of heroics, but not the dark edge. The heroes may not be saving the Galaxy on Day 1 ... but they may get there.
I'm envisioning the occasional side job for the crew (which the Jedi might be interested in) but most of the missions involving diplomatic, exploration, or investigation, perhaps instigated by the group's Jedi Enclave, perhaps encountered through adventuring. (but everyone, please way in with your thoughts).
On Sunday we talked about the campaign being player driven in much the same way that Dark City was character driven. So there will always be story arcs, but a lot of the subplots are based on what the PCs decide to do (Corash being a great example of this in Dark City). I also think there's a lot of interest in tackling the tough questions of the era, as typified by the Mandalodian Invasion, and the need for the Jedi to choose a side.
The added challenge, in addition to starting at higher levels with no credits-per-level guidance, is that folks are interested in heavy equipment; starships, swoop bikes, etc. That's not something that's normally affordable at this level (well, you can get cheap vehicles used) but I think we can come up with ways to deal with that that appeal to everyone (perhaps a vehicle budget, with the remainder -- for starfighters or frighters -- being in the form of a loan?).
In terms of speed of leveling, I'd like the group to be at something like 12th level by the time things wind down next year. That's just me though; I'm curious to hear what others have to say, and I'm certainly ok with starting at a higher level if folks want to end at a higher level (e.g. start at 3rd to end at 13th). We could also increase the XP progression, but personally I'd rather stick with the default and see what that's like.
With regards to the progression charge, I think having some sort of starting gold guidelines (Max at first level + X per level afterwards) is a good idea. The core rule book does have some credits-per-encounter guidelines that I think we can reverse engineer a chart from. I'll post more about that later.
I'm envisioning the occasional side job for the crew (which the Jedi might be interested in) but most of the missions involving diplomatic, exploration, or investigation, perhaps instigated by the group's Jedi Enclave, perhaps encountered through adventuring. (but everyone, please way in with your thoughts).
On Sunday we talked about the campaign being player driven in much the same way that Dark City was character driven. So there will always be story arcs, but a lot of the subplots are based on what the PCs decide to do (Corash being a great example of this in Dark City). I also think there's a lot of interest in tackling the tough questions of the era, as typified by the Mandalodian Invasion, and the need for the Jedi to choose a side.
The added challenge, in addition to starting at higher levels with no credits-per-level guidance, is that folks are interested in heavy equipment; starships, swoop bikes, etc. That's not something that's normally affordable at this level (well, you can get cheap vehicles used) but I think we can come up with ways to deal with that that appeal to everyone (perhaps a vehicle budget, with the remainder -- for starfighters or frighters -- being in the form of a loan?).
In terms of speed of leveling, I'd like the group to be at something like 12th level by the time things wind down next year. That's just me though; I'm curious to hear what others have to say, and I'm certainly ok with starting at a higher level if folks want to end at a higher level (e.g. start at 3rd to end at 13th). We could also increase the XP progression, but personally I'd rather stick with the default and see what that's like.
With regards to the progression charge, I think having some sort of starting gold guidelines (Max at first level + X per level afterwards) is a good idea. The core rule book does have some credits-per-encounter guidelines that I think we can reverse engineer a chart from. I'll post more about that later.
Jonkga wrote:Here's where I am coming from:
1. we are looking at a game system that is similar to D&D 3e and 4e, but is not the same. Gold does not equal credits, and D&D doesn't have licensed, restricted, military, or illegal items (magic items are not really comparable).
2. I am not looking for any specific items to start with. Sure, I want a heavy blaster and stormtrooper armor, but I want to gain those in game; I don't have to start with them.
3. Everything would be fine if we were starting at 1st level with max gold and guidelines of our own stating only licensed items. We have no progression guide for starting above 1st level, and that is part of what is causing alot of this confusion.
4. We altered the printed D&D progression chart for our OB campaigns to better fit our version of Greyhawk. What do we really want from this campaign? High heroics like the games/movies? More gritty like our D&D stuff? This will go a long way towards answering where we want to come in on credits and items.
5. How quickly do we want to level?
6. I think the SW saga edition is very balanced between Jedi and other classes, really. Lance's point here is a good one (I wouldn't hide behind the Jedi, as they couldn't protect me great yet
7. I am really in favor of relying on the books for guidance here. I like not starting with any restricted/military/illegal items. The things I am bringing up (like the 6500 credit ship here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... cle/Mesop4 ) are things I found that I thought pushed the limits or seemed questionable in my mind, but were fully doable according to the starting package we were talking about, and I figured it would be better to talk them out first prior to starting the campaign.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
So one last post and I'll go read my books some more.
On page 248 of the core rule book, it discusses "other rewards", and suggests a reward of 2,000 credits (in "coin" and equipment) per average encounter.
At first level, characters earn 200 XP for each successful Challenge Level 1 encounter (sometimes less, sometimes more). They need 1,000 XP to level, so they need about 5 encounters to level.
5 encounters x a 2,000 cr reward = 10,000 CR. I'm not sure what the average number of players is, but I'm assuming 4 to 5. That gives us a high range of 2,000 to 2,500 credits earned at 1st level.
That progression keeps up throughout the game, as you always need about 5 encounters to get to the next level. This means that we could do our "starting credits" table in increments of 2000-2500 and have it jive with what the existing characters got.
So here's how it shakes out assuming max 3000 credits at first level (with Jedis getting less at first level, and nobles getting more).
(assuming credits divided by 5 players)
1 / 3000
2 / 5000
3 / 7000
4 / 9000
5 / 11000
6 / 13000
7 / 15000
8 / 17000
9 / 19000
10 / 21000
11 / 23000
12 / 25000
13 / 27000
14 / 29000
15 / 31000
16 / 33000
17 / 35000
18 / 37000
19 / 39000
20 / 41000
(assuming credits divided by 4 players)
1 / 3000
2 / 5500
3 / 8000
4 / 10500
5 / 13000
6 / 15500
7 / 18000
8 / 20500
9 / 23000
10 / 25500
11 / 28000
12 / 30500
13 / 33000
14 / 35500
15 / 38000
16 / 40500
17 / 43000
18 / 45500
19 / 48000
20 / 50500
On page 248 of the core rule book, it discusses "other rewards", and suggests a reward of 2,000 credits (in "coin" and equipment) per average encounter.
At first level, characters earn 200 XP for each successful Challenge Level 1 encounter (sometimes less, sometimes more). They need 1,000 XP to level, so they need about 5 encounters to level.
5 encounters x a 2,000 cr reward = 10,000 CR. I'm not sure what the average number of players is, but I'm assuming 4 to 5. That gives us a high range of 2,000 to 2,500 credits earned at 1st level.
That progression keeps up throughout the game, as you always need about 5 encounters to get to the next level. This means that we could do our "starting credits" table in increments of 2000-2500 and have it jive with what the existing characters got.
So here's how it shakes out assuming max 3000 credits at first level (with Jedis getting less at first level, and nobles getting more).
(assuming credits divided by 5 players)
1 / 3000
2 / 5000
3 / 7000
4 / 9000
5 / 11000
6 / 13000
7 / 15000
8 / 17000
9 / 19000
10 / 21000
11 / 23000
12 / 25000
13 / 27000
14 / 29000
15 / 31000
16 / 33000
17 / 35000
18 / 37000
19 / 39000
20 / 41000
(assuming credits divided by 4 players)
1 / 3000
2 / 5500
3 / 8000
4 / 10500
5 / 13000
6 / 15500
7 / 18000
8 / 20500
9 / 23000
10 / 25500
11 / 28000
12 / 30500
13 / 33000
14 / 35500
15 / 38000
16 / 40500
17 / 43000
18 / 45500
19 / 48000
20 / 50500
Last edited by NukeHavoc on Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
Dude, i totally understand that wasn't your plan, just how I reacted so I backed off. I knew you weren't starting anything, I just didn't want to fly off the handle and start something unwarranted.NukeHavoc wrote:Sorry, that wasn't my intent; I was just trying to make a comment about the effect that a lot of credits at low levels has.Jonkga wrote:Wow, I'm so pissed off after reading that post that I'll comment on it later, after I've had a chance to cool down.
Mostly my frustration at having difficulty expressing myself.
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
-
Lars Porsenna
- Posts: 4783
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm
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Well, another confrontations defused...
<pats self on back>
Damon
<pats self on back>
Damon
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
The thing I love about this game is that there are so many ways to be good at what you do ... including the Jedi. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.EvilGenius wrote:I don't have the book yet (I'll be picking it up this week) but the Jedi concept I'm shooting for is complete and total mastery of the Force. I'm going for whatever gives me the absolute most in Force powers and abilities.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange