Deflector Shields set to Double-Front

Our KOTOR campaign.
setanta14
Posts: 3880
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:57 pm

Deflector Shields set to Double-Front

Post by setanta14 »

One thing that dawned on me while watching the new Clone Wars this morning was when Anakin and Shadow Squadron were making their attack run on the Malevolence with those proto-Y-Wings is that I don't remember seeing a game mechanic where you can adjust your shield strength in different arcs. The "set deflectors to double-front" command made me think of maybe making a house rule:

As either a swift or move action, you can double the remaining shield rating of your ship for your front arc (like against all attacks that come in from your front three squares, figured from the direction that you last moved to designate a "front"), but you loose all shield rating benefits from attacks from the sides or back (the other 5 squares not in your "front" arc). This would be good for straight in attack runs against enemies directly ahead of you, but dangerous if there are picket fighters, etc. on your flanks.

Comments?
User avatar
Lars Porsenna
Posts: 4779
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Manta, Ecuador

Post by Lars Porsenna »

Its actually a rule in the Starship book. Instead the maneuver is called "Angle the deflector screens" for a bonus shield rating in a specific direction (or attacker). You still need the feat to use...

Damon.
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

So I was listening to the Order 66 podcast while doing some home improvements today, and they made an offhand comment about dropping shields in increments of five, or some such. That brought to mind how Zulen was only able to raise shields in 5 point increments, which led me to double check the shield rules.

We've been playing that an attack exceeds your shield rating, you lose your shields immediately, and they drop to zero.

As per page 161 of the SW core rules book, here's how shields *actually* work. If the damage dealt exceeds your shield rating, then your shield rating decreases by 5.

So let's reconsider last night's encounter between the Ebon Hawk and the three Davaab starfighters -- specifically the two concussion missiles that destroyed the Hawk.

Assume the torpedos did 90 points of damage with each hit. On the first shot, the Ebon Hawk's shields would soak 40 points of damage, reducing it to 50 points. Because the shields' SR was exceeded, they're effectiveness drops to SR 35.

The ship's Damage Reduction 15 soaks another 15 points of damage, so she takes 35 points of damage.

When the second missile goes off, the SR is less effective. It soaks 35 instead of 40 points, reducing the second warhead's impact damage down to 55. The DR kicks in, negating another 15, bringing the damage dealt to 40. Because the SR was exceeded, it drops another 5 points, to SR 30.

So in one round, the ship takes 75 points of damage. That's nasty to be sure, but she's still flying and she still has shields at SR 30. Moreover, Zulen has a decent chance of getting those shields back up to 35 on his next action.

Also, you can try and shoot down an incoming missile as a readied action. With a Reflex Defense of 30, that's hard, but with a proper soldier on the guns, it might be doable.

I think all of this makes combat more survivable for those ships with shields (as it should be). It's still tough, particularly if your opponent rolls well on damage from one of those missiles, but not nearly as bad as how we had been playing it. :)
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Lars Porsenna
Posts: 4779
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Manta, Ecuador

Post by Lars Porsenna »

Good catch Ken. Makes missiles quite a bit less broken (unless you're in a TIE, then they're broken for a different reason...)

Damon.
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

Wow, that would have really changed things!! :)

And it makes the restoration of 5 SR/round much more valuable!

And I'm glad that they have a mechanic to adjust your shields. That's such a nostalgic maneuver from the original Trench Run on the Death Star, not to mention the XWing, TIE Fighter and XWing vs TIE pc games!
setanta14
Posts: 3880
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:57 pm

Post by setanta14 »

It takes a whole feat to be able to adjust your shields? Yuck... I guess that's why you just buy an R2 unit who has the feat to do it for you.

The 5 point up or down increment sounds a lot better, but I think the outcome of last night's combat would have been the same since Davaab's had shields too... It just would have been drawn out longer.
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

Yeah, the fight would have been more drawn out but the fighters would have run out of missiles and we would have been much less damaged. We very well may have won the fight if we hadn't been destroyed outright by two concussion missiles. :)
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

setanta14 wrote:It takes a whole feat to be able to adjust your shields? Yuck... I guess that's why you just buy an R2 unit who has the feat to do it for you.
This is where the abstraction of facing in the game runs counter to what we see in the Star Wars universe. There is no "double front" because technically, there is no facing. :)

We could house rule this to be an action that you can take in combat. It's a swift action as a maneuver, maybe we could house rule it to be a standard action? (or perhaps 3 swifts, since it takes 3 swifts to raise the shields again?)

Or we simply say hey, it's KOTOR; directional shielding hasn't been invented yet, but a few folks know how to juryrig the system to get it to work (thus the combat maneuver).
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Lars Porsenna
Posts: 4779
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Manta, Ecuador

Post by Lars Porsenna »

I sort of look at it this way: even though I can shoot a rifle with a fair level of accuracy (at least the Army said so), I don't know how to operate the multi-launch missile system of an AEGIS cruiser. Similarly, someone with no training can flip the switch that says "shields," but to do anything else requires a certain level of expertise...

Damon.
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
Modeling the Ecuadorian Military: https://ecuadorianmilitary.blogspot.com/
My Book Blog: http://bookslikedust.blogspot.com/
My Minis Blog: http://minislikedust.blogspot.com/
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

If we're doing starship combat, then I think it's worth it to have at least one player (perhaps a hired NPC?) as a pilot. I'm not sure where Cory's going with his captain/pilot character, but there are several feats/maneuvers that can really help in a starship combat.

Some are in the *Starships* book, but there's a great one in the core rule book:

---------------------
* Vehicular Combat: Once per round (as a reaction), when you are piloting a vehicle or starship, you may negate a weapon hit by making a successful Pilot check. The DC of the skill check is equal to the result of the attack roll you wish to negate. In addition, while you are piloting a vehicle, you are considered proficient in pilot-operated vehicle weapons.
---------------------

Based on what we've seen in combat, this feat is *huge*, particularly if you have a trained/skill focused pilot (so you're looking at something like a +12 Pilot check at 1st level, against attack bonuses that are probably half that on the opposing ships).

So if the Ebon Hawk's pilot had this, he'd have had a good chance of evading one of those two concussion missiles that took down the ship.

And just so those who weren't there are in the loop, we setup the Ebon Hawk ( CL 8 ) and an escort Davaas-type starfighter ( CL 8 ) against three Davaas starfighters (all CL 8 ). The opposition was overkill in the extreme -- a single Davaas starfighter would have been a sufficient challenge -- but we wanted to push things to the limit.

In the campaign, the ship would never go up against such overwhelming odds (or at least, would be far, far less likely to do so. :)) A better fight was probably the initial combat with three TIE fighters, though in that encounter I think 4-5 TIES would have been an appropriate match.
Last edited by NukeHavoc on Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

NukeHavoc wrote:And just so those who weren't there are in the loop, we setup the Ebon Hawk (CL 8 ) and an escort Davaas-type starfighter (CL 8 ) against three Davaas starfighters (all CL 8 ). The opposition was overkill in the extreme -- a single Davaas starfighter would have been a sufficient challenge -- but we wanted to push things to the limit.
I think if we were doing the shield rules correctly we could have definitely taken two and we may have been able to take three.

I do agree that we really need characters who will constitute a trained starship crew. Regular characters can sub for some things but considering how deadly starship combat can be, we need a trained pilot and gunner at least. :)
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

I've been looking into what happens to a ship when it's reduced to 0 hit points. On Page 146 of the core rules, under Damage Threshold, it says that:

"A droid, object or vehicle reduced to 0 hit points by an attack that deals damage equal to or greater than it's damage threshold is destroyed."

It doesn't explicitly state it, but I'm assuming that you're reduced to 0 hit points and become disabled (moves -5 steps down the condition track, becomes non-functional)

Assuming that's the case, and my engineer takes the "Fast Repairs" talent from the Outlaw Tech tree, he would be able to attempt to jury rig the ship back into operation. Jury rig is a DC 25 skill check, and moves the ship +2 up the condition track. "Fast Repairs" means that he could grant it a number of temporary hit points equal to the result of my mechanics check (so minimum +25 HP).

If I also took the "Quick Fix" talent (which I think would probably end up being my third level talent, it's also Outlaw Tech), I would be able to juryrig the ship even before it was disabled, allowing it to gain the temporary hit points and move +2 up the condition track.

That said, that represents a huge investment in vehicle/starship related talents (though I could use the juryrig stuff on any mechanical or electrical device, it's most useful for starships/vehicles) so I don't know if it's worth it given the amount of starship stuff we'll do.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
EvilGenius
Posts: 6716
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: Allentown, PA

Post by EvilGenius »

I was thinking a little bit more about the ship and our character makeup and how the party will function.

In other campaigns, it's not really a problem to leave certain characters behind while some go on adventures. If a player isn't there, we've mostly had a way for his character to be absent as well.

But in this campaign, if the ship is going to be our 'home base' and we're traveling to another system, everyone kinda has to come along, even if certain players aren't participating that week.

If we're on a planet, it's no problem. 'Dave' stays with the ship. Or goes back to the ship. Or whatever.

But if we're traveling by ship to another whole system, not only do we need all of the characters with us, but if a ship-focused character isn't available when we get jumped by whomever, the whole damn party can be wiped out!

So maybe we should think about the following things:

1) Everyone needs to have a current copy of their character posted on the Crier. That way we know who's along and what their skills/feats/abilities are. I'm thinking this will only be critical for ship based combat. It's kinda lame for the entire party to be wiped out and have to start over because the only character trained with ship based weapons was "asleep". :)

2) We could in fact allow multiple characters per player with the understanding that you're only taking one on an adventure. That would allow us to have a ship-focused character and a non-ship-focused character.

3) If we aren't going to do multiple characters and we don't want to sink a lot of personal resources (feats/skills) into starship combat and maintenance, we should seriously think about having 1 or 2 NPC crew.
User avatar
NukeHavoc
Posts: 12106
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:07 pm
Location: Easton, PA
Contact:

Post by NukeHavoc »

I share your concerns, though mostly with regards to ship combat. I think for the most part we'll be able to handle player absences by saying "he/she/it is back on the ship" or "he goes back to the ship" or whatever (kind of like what we jokingly did on Friday with the running joke about "someone wake up the Gungan" when we realized how important a soldier would be in that kind of fight (alluding to the whole "someone wake up Hicks" line from the combat drop scene in Aliens).

Personally, I'd like us to concentrate on running tighter adventures that are wrapped up in one or two sessions so that the possibility of leaving someone behind is less likely. We'd still have ongoing storylines of course, but my thought is that given people's schedules, it's best if we try and keep things tight, rather than following the meandering approach of something like Dark City. I'd still want to have those occasional downtime adventures where people pursue their own goals (even if it's shopping for a new favorite gun) but even those kinds of things I'd want to wrap up in one night.

I think the issue of not having some important member of the crew on hand for a starship battle is the bigger problem. While GMs can scale things back if a player is missing, I like the idea of having backup crew who can handle those roles, should the need arise. I'd rather have 1 or 2 NPCs (the Jaynes and Washs of our ship) than alternate PCs. We talked about alternates earlier, but I think the consensus there is that it would likely dilute character advancement too much to keep switching between characters.

I like the idea of having backup NPCs who are members of the standing crew, but only really shine when we're on ship. Folks could even adopt those NPCs and run them during combats if they felt their own character didn't have anything to contribute (though I suspect most heroic characters will) or could run them side by side with their own.

Perhaps a navigation droid who could double as a pilot? And a Chewbacca-style scoundrel/soldier who could help with engineering or fighting, as need be?
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
User avatar
Jonkga
Posts: 4468
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Location: Albany, NY

Post by Jonkga »

setanta14 wrote:It takes a whole feat to be able to adjust your shields? Yuck... I guess that's why you just buy an R2 unit who has the feat to do it for you.
.
Actually, that's only one of the maneuvers the feat lets yo do, so you actuallyget pretty good bang for your buck with that feat...
"Here are your waters and your watering place.
Drink and be whole again beyond confusion."
-- "Directive" by Robert Frost
Post Reply