Rules: Actions in a Dogfight

[NukeHavoc]

We were going to take this conversation online but never did: What actions can a pilot take in a dogfight?

My take on it remains the same. Being in a dogfight means your choices are:

1) Maintaining the Dogfight: Take a standard action to make a Piloting check. If you beat your opponent, you may take an attack as a swift action (if you have an attack; if you don't, then you simply prevented your enemy from attacking you AND setup your gunners for their shots).

2) Escaping the Dogfight: You can take a standard action to make a Piloting check; if you succeed, you break out of the dogfight.

My take on this is that the rules in this section use "pilot" and "vehicle" interchangeably; dogfighting is a "Pilot Only" action but it talks about "vehicles" doing things; I think this is because in many encounters, the vehicles and pilots are synonymous (e.g. I don't have separate statblocks for TIE pilots and TIE fighters; I just have TIES).

As for gunners, they always get their attacks, but the Piloting check determines how good their angle is. If Highlife edges out his opponent, then the ship's in an optimum position and the gunners don't get any negative modifiers. If he loses then the enemy has the advantage, and the gunners take their penalties.

Conceptually, I think this makes sense; it's a dogfight and you don't have time to be mucking about with inverting the shield generator or whatever. If you want to do that, have someone else jump on the controls and get down to engineering (e.g. Leia piloting the Falcon during the escape from Hoth while Han works in the bowels of ship).

Also, if you look at the grab/grapple rules in Saga Edition, they've got the same sort of streamlining. It's not like D&D 3.5 where you had a laundry list of actions you could take during a grapple. In SE, you've got a very narrowly defined list of things you can do, and most of those who can't even try unless you have the right feat.

Similarly, in dogfighting there *are* other dogfight, as spelled out in the Starship Maneuvers section of Starships of the Galax. However, they require you to learn those maneuvers (there's one that let's you gain up to a standard action as a reaction against an enemy pilot's attack, as well as several other "do X to get advantage Y" type maneuvers.

I don't know if we'll be getting into as many dogfights now that Highlife has a -10 to his piloting check Then again, if the party picks up a starfighter at some point, we very well could see a lot more dogfighting.

ken

[setanta14]

I agree... after reading all of the pertinent sections in SWSE and SSotG, when you have entered a dogfight, SOMEONE must act for the ship each round taking either the dogfight or disengage actions.

In the consequences section, it uses the pronoun "it", referring the need for an action to be taken by the ship.

In the subsequent other sections, it uses "you", linking SOME pilot to the ship, meaning someone must act for the ship each round.

Having been a pilot, and being familiar with taking over from or relinquishing the controls to my instructor, I think the best way to model this would be to always have the current and potential pilot act on the same initiative on a round that control is changed, requiring one of them to hold their actions until the other is ready depending on who goes first in initiative order... otherwise you'd have segments of the round where the ship would be un-piloted, and thus out of control.

Why I say this is because of the protocol for taking over the controls... If I wanted to take control, I had to take the stick and shake it so there would be a tactile queue, and also say verbally "I have the aircraft", and the person giving them up had to also shake the stick and acknowledge verbally "you have the aircraft" before letting go to ensure the aircraft was always under positive control.

In regular flight, this might not be necessary, but I think in a Dogfight it definitely would be.

[NukeHavoc]

In regular flight, this might not be necessary, but I think in a Dogfight it definitely would be.

I concur. I think we could also house-rule this to make it a swift action to turn control over to your co-pilot. e.g. Highlife could say "Quest, take the controls -- I need to lock down those shields!" as a swift, then allowing him to take a standard during that round ... but Quest would then need to make the Piloting check to continue/escape the dogfight that round.

[Hardcorhobbs]

I thought it was a done deal. You just described consensus, I was the only one with another viewpoint. I couldn't sway anyone, so I defer to the group's decision.

Besides, we just figured out I wasn't applying the ship's size modifier. Looking at the revised stats, I won't be dogfighting any time soon. (Unless we find a starfighter, in which case my argument is a moot point because the only guns ARE the pilot guns.)

[setanta14]

Just because you decide not to dogfight another ship doesn't mean it won't decide to dogfight you

I thought it was a done deal. You just described consensus, I was the only one with another viewpoint. I couldn't sway anyone, so I defer to the group's decision.

Besides, we just figured out I wasn't applying the ship's size modifier. Looking at the revised stats, I won't be dogfighting any time soon. (Unless we find a starfighter, in which case my argument is a moot point because the only guns ARE the pilot guns.)

[NukeHavoc]

I thought it was a done deal. You just described consensus, I was the only one with another viewpoint. I couldn't sway anyone, so I defer to the group's decision.

Ok, just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page since we're running this kind of combat so frequently.

ken

[Hardcorhobbs]

I just re-read this post and noticed some the need for further rule clarifications. Now, I have to double check my book but I think some of your steps are off. Note, I am not arguing anything, just pointing what I think are some clarifications:

1) Maintaining the Dogfight: Take a standard action to make a Piloting check. If you beat your opponent, you may take an attack as a swift action (if you have an attack; if you don't, then you simply prevented your enemy from attacking you AND setup your gunners for their shots).

First just to note this is not called maintaining a dogfight, it is attacking in a dogfight. Next you take a standard action to make an opposed piloting check vs your enemy. If you succeed you may make an attack as a swift action with any pilot controlled weapons. If you fail all gunners take a -5 penalty until the next turn. This does not prevent the enemy from attacking. They have to make a similar check during their turn.

2) Escaping the Dogfight: You can take a standard action to make a Piloting check; if you succeed, you break out of the dogfight.

I believe it's a move action, and an opposed piloting check.