On advancement and downtime

Our KOTOR campaign.
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NukeHavoc
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On advancement and downtime

Post by NukeHavoc »

After Friday's game we got to talking about the rate of advancement in Star Wars. Long story short, Jon would like to see us jump two levels (going to level 6 instead of just level 5). I'll let him elaborate if he likes, but basically Jon feels the regular advancement routine is too gradual, and he'd like to see his Gungan soldier pick up a few new abilities quicker than a single-level advancement would net him. I should preface this by saying that Jon sees his character's perfect build being achieved at 15th level, so he'd like to get there sooner instead of later. :)

The general sense of those who were there (Bob, Damon, Cory and myself) is that this would be fine. In tandem with the level jump, we're thinking of having 4-6 months of downtime for the padawans and Binary Transport, given people a chance to do some off-camera side quests if they want (e.g. Quest returns to his homeworld to study with the monks. The crew works on upgrades to the Infinite Regress. Zulen works on a few new tech specialist improvements for his friends. JPD-14 and Thraddox head off to do a little bounty hunting, etc.)

It was proposed that going forward, we'd play from 6th level to 7th, and then we'd pause with these characters in order to do the Mandalorian War prelude (with each of us running 8th level Mando warriors). We also discussed what level we'd want to be when we jumped back to the regular campaign.

We'd originally talked about being 8th level, but Jon's sense was that this wouldn't be a big enough jump, ability-wise, to feel like we were playing future versions of our characters (thanks to the gradual advancement in Star Wars). 9th and 10th level were thrown out as possible targets (12th might have been as well; I can't remember exactly).

Personally, I think 9th or 10th would be ok. From a GM standpoint, I don't want to jump too many levels because I've got a fairly good sense of how to run the game right now, and I'm worried that jumping too far, too fast will put me back to square one when it comes to adventure design.

After we get back to the main campaign after the Mandalorian jump, I'm not opposed to another twofer level bump (e.g. moving up two levels instead of one) if the group wants it, but before we did that I'd want to have a chance to settle back into our characters for a while and see how things were playing.

Anyway, that's what we discussed. Let us know what you think.
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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NukeHavoc
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by NukeHavoc »

Two things to consider during the downtime:

Zulen's Tech Specialist feat: Zulen's tech specialist feat allows him to make upgrades to weapons, armor, ships, droids, vehicles, etc. I don't have the full list of bonuses this provides in front of me, but basically it improves accuracy, damage, resistance, etc. Cost is something like 1000 to 2000 CR, depending on what you're looking for. Post if you're interested.

Armor & Weapon Upgrades: Scum & Villainy has an upgrade system for armor and weapons that allows you to incorporate Boba Fett-style upgrades to your armor. I'm not saying everything in the book can be yours, but if you'd like an upgrade, let me know and we'll see what we can do. :)
"Oh, I'm so sorry. Forgive me. I'll try and be a tad more quiet as I desperately struggle to break free -- and save all creation!" -- Doctor Strange
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Jonkga
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Jonkga »

I don't know. I guess I'm not as sold on this anymore as I was last night. I still feel that in this game progress is slow. The talents/character feats/class feats being three different paths make movement up each of those paths incremental if they are not all building towards the same thing. For example, I am using talents to improve my armor wearing, character feats to improve my survivability, and class feats to improve my offensive capabilities, so progress really seems to occur once every three levels along each of those paths. And, as I said last night, to garner the talents/feats that make it feel like I've achieved this progression along any one of those paths it will take quite a few levels. And, it seems like that wasn't Ken's plan, even with the jumps in storyline planned. I guess I just saw those jumps as bigger than others did. I was figuring 5 or 6 levels per jump, not the 2 to 3 that others were planning.

And, as we discussed last night, I am able to separate character mechanics from storyline, and Ken and others aren't as able of willing to do that. Again, not a criticism, more a different approach to the hobby. I mean no disrespect in pointing this out.

So, maybe it would be better if we don't bother with a double level advancement right now, especially if we need to justify it in game. I wasn't looking for in-game advancement, just on character sheet advancement.
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Jonkga
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Jonkga »

Or, based upon the armor thread, I may want the two levels to see if I can even use an armor upgrade (if I get it) without hurting my offensive capabilities.
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setanta14
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by setanta14 »

A 6-8-10 level jump from Main-Mando-Main seems ok... It isn't too drastic, and gives some playtime at each tier to get use to things again
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Jonkga »

setanta14 wrote:A 6-8-10 level jump from Main-Mando-Main seems ok... It isn't too drastic, and gives some playtime at each tier to get use to things again
Yeah, and to me, that seems like normal progression, and I'd vote for something like a 6 - 10 - 14 progression for the main - mando - main jumps. That would seem to really move things significantly enough for me.

But really, I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm in the minority here, and we should probably go with what's good for the group, so let's not worry too much about jumping too high in levels here. It was just a thought...
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Jonkga
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Jonkga »

And, thinking about it, it seems to me we are playing star wars for way longer than I expected. And, I think part of my desire to jump up quicker in levels is due to the fact that I assumed we weren't going to be doing this for as long as we have, let alone for as long as we seem to be projecting for. So, if we really are going to be playing for a while, then I guess a much more gradual approach is fine.

I will just say that I have always been in favor of leveling faster than we ever did, even in D&D. Long, slow progressions just make me feel like I'm not mechanically developing my character fast enough. Maybe that's just me.
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Lars Porsenna »

Jonkga wrote:Yeah, and to me, that seems like normal progression, and I'd vote for something like a 6 - 10 - 14 progression for the main - mando - main jumps. That would seem to really move things significantly enough for me.
One thing to keep in mind, with this sort of jump would take the Jedi straight from Padawan to jedi Master. While mechanically it would he a huge change with a lot of options, from a story perspective, it wouldn't be as much fun for my character FREX.

Damon.
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by EvilGenius »

Yeah, I think that's a valid point, Damon.

But after we play the Mandalorian interlude, we don't really have to jump our main guys to the next tier. If we play Mandalorians at level 9/10 and then jump back to our main characters we can play our mains at 9/10 also. And then jump ahead again for the next big war.

So that way we would be playing our current characters to level 6, then picking them up again at, say level 10. And play for however long we would like. Then skip the story/character development ahead again when appropriate.
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Jonkga
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Jonkga »

Lars Porsenna wrote:
Jonkga wrote:Yeah, and to me, that seems like normal progression, and I'd vote for something like a 6 - 10 - 14 progression for the main - mando - main jumps. That would seem to really move things significantly enough for me.
One thing to keep in mind, with this sort of jump would take the Jedi straight from Padawan to jedi Master. While mechanically it would he a huge change with a lot of options, from a story perspective, it wouldn't be as much fun for my character FREX.

Damon.
And I think this comment gets to the crux of the matter. I was viewing the game from the perspective that it would be fun to have abilities, and it seems everyone else was viewing from the perspective that it would be fun to gain abilities. So, I will bow to the group judgment on this.
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

I can think of a few good examples to ponder. According to the rules, when you hit level 7 as a Jedi you become a knight. From what Damon seems to be implying, once you take a level in the prestige class Jedi Master you are in fact a Jedi Master. I don't necessarily think either of these should be so defined in the rules (at least not in at level x you become a knight). IMHO they should be handled in the story by the GM. What if your a muticlassing jedi? When the rest of your class hit's level 7 they become knights, but you get left behind because you don't have the right mechanical build. This goes double for Jedi Masters. You can take the prestige class at what, level 8? Level 9? So it took years to become a knight, but only a few months to become a Master? This doesn't even fit with cannon. In the cannon a Master is one who has successfully trained a padawan to knight.

So I agree with Jon. I think there should be more thought on the story and less how the mechanics really connect to the story. Sure you can take the Jedi Master prestige class at level 8, but in game your not a Jedi Master because you haven't met the the story requirements. Think the party deserves to become Jedi knights now (say level 5 for argument's sake) because they met the story requirements? Then go ahead and give it to them. It's our game we don't have to follow the guidelines 100%.

Anyway that's my $0.02
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:But after we play the Mandalorian interlude, we don't really have to jump our main guys to the next tier. If we play Mandalorians at level 9/10 and then jump back to our main characters we can play our mains at 9/10 also. And then jump ahead again for the next big war.
Putting on my player hat, I think my hang up with jumping to 9/10 is that I have no idea what Zulen would look like at 9/10. :) I mean, he's a GM character so obviously I don't think his advancement should impede or hamper the rest of the group, but I've been growing him organically, picking up feats and talents based on what happens in game. I have a few ideas -- get the Technomancy power that allows him to hack/manipulate droids, the Ion power (again, for droids) and the Superior Tech feat (the high level upgrade for Tech Specialist) but aside from that ... [shrug].

And the big questions, like ... does he try and become a Jedi? Does he stick to life with Binary Transports Inc? No idea, and naturally that would impact his class/prestige class picks. In other words ... I think I'm in the exact opposite boat from Jon. :)

That said, I'm sure I can find a prestige class that carries him forward from where he is now (straddling the Force/scoundrel line) so it'll be water under the bridge eventually, but that's kind of where my head is right now, and why my knee jerk reaction has been smaller jumps. If everyone's cool with a 9/10 jump, then I'm fine with that too.
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

I think your right Ken, your in a unique situation. I know where I want Highlife to go, so if we jump he'll pick up more feats and talents to help the company (Fly better, more contacts, better leadership). I'd hope at this point everyone else has a good sense of where they are taking their character (and it sounds like it). You... have a bit more to worry about, but yeah I think if you were a player you'd have had more time to think about it.

Or you might still be in the same boat. Zulen is a bit unique ;)
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by NukeHavoc »

Hardcorhobbs wrote:Or you might still be in the same boat. Zulen is a bit unique ;)
Oh I definitely think I'd be in the same boat. A big, leaky boat with a huge outboard engine that's been upgraded and patched 20 different ways. :)
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Re: On advancement and downtime

Post by Hardcorhobbs »

NukeHavoc wrote:Oh I definitely think I'd be in the same boat. A big, leaky boat with a huge outboard engine that's been upgraded and patched 20 different ways. :)
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