Comparisons

Adventures and starship battles in a universe where the stars are dying.
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EvilGenius
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Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

I've been running some battle simulations in preparation for my upcoming battle with Damon. I've been running 1 of my destroyers, base model with crew quality 3, against 1 destroyer from each of the other fleets. The Decados Destroyer tore through Hawkwood, LiHalan and Al Malak. I had a tougher time with Hazat but I made them 'splode 3 times in a row and took about 50% damage each battle. I didn't run simulations against Lance's destroyers yet. Overall, these 6 dice, accurate, multihit 3 weapon banks are just brutal.

Almost all of the other fleets destroyers have longer range than the Decados destroyer so I gave them all a free round of attacks against my destroyer before I rolled for initiative. That really helped the Hazat ship but didn't make a significant impact for the other 2 fleets.

Since the range wasn't double my range, after a free round I put everyone in weapon range. I also assumed that each side was able to maneuver so that they could get one broadside on the enemy, which really allowed for maximum firepower each round (turrets + either port or starboard weapon batteries). The real game would model that a little differently as maneuvering may take someone out of range of some of the weapons, or out of a particular firing arc. But I was guestimating.

I did damage control rolls at the end of the turn, but I stayed away from special actions at the beginning of the turn. I thought about trying to add them in but I ended up reserving special actions for maneuvering (seasoned captain best able to keep enemy in firing arcs, etc etc).

Under those conditions, one on one, the Decados ship pulverized all comers. The rules say the LiHalan Dragon is widely considered the most effective Destroyer and the Hawkwood Griffin is a fine ship but give me a Decados Tupokta!!!
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erilar
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Re: Comparisons

Post by erilar »

This sounds very similar to what I was saying the other night... :wink:

I honestly think we need to read the weapons system rules again, because I'm having a hard time believing the designers would release such an unbalanced fleet. The ease at which your turret weapons erase shields seems to be the head-scratcher. My rockets and heat blasters go around shields, but I need to roll way high to do that. The Decados fleets get a normal roll to erase shields, and then an accurate roll to do damage - seems a bit much?

If anything, the stuff released later in a game's life cycle tends to be more powerful due to feature creep, but I think my fleet seems balanced against the others.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

I think some of the disparity is that the Decados Destroyer is designed primarily as a gunboat, with efficient design. So running a shooting battle simulation favors the ships primarily designed to be shooters. That's why I had more trouble with the Hazat destroyer, I think. It had big banks of burnout, multihit weapons.

I ran a quick one on one simulation this morning between a Tupok'ta and one of Lance's destroyers. I shredded him but after Lance's destroyer was crippled, I had him attempt a boarding action, which completely overwhelmed me.

So I think the issue is more finding the strengths and intended design for your fleet. The Decados fleet is a short range shredder. The Al Malik fleet is designed to keep distance and just keep throwing a lot of dice; some will get through. The Hawkwood and Li Halan fleets seem to be finess fleets. Their laser batteries are accurate (easier to hit), burnout (remove shields for next attacker) and precise (no bulkhead hits, 5-6 to cause criticals). So for both of those fleets, I think the idea is to work in tandem with another ship who strips the shields, then you look for crits.
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erilar
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Re: Comparisons

Post by erilar »

EvilGenius wrote:I think some of the disparity is that the Decados Destroyer is designed primarily as a gunboat, with efficient design.
Contrasted with Kurgen destroyers, which are - wait for it - designed primarily as gunboats. There was no contest.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

I'm not sure the Kurgan Destroyer is primarily a gunboat. The Kurgan ship is 50% faster (speed 12 compared to 8 ), and is 100% more maneuverable (2 turns compared to 1).

The Kurgan has 2 turreted heat blasters but the port and starboard batteries are rockets with a good range of 20". It also has 6 more HP than Decados, Hawkwood, Hazat, LiHalen or AlMalik destroyers (36 compared to 30). Finally, Kurgan has 3 grapple guns, in front, port and starboard arcs, and carries 9 troops, compared to 8 for Hawkwood, Decados, LiHalan and AlMalik, and 10 for Hazat.

I think the Kurgan destroyer is designed as a multi-role warship. I'd peg it's initial use as a stand-off rocket platform. It may be more difficult but it's the speed and maneuverability should help. Then when someone does get close, I think the Kurgan ship probably switches to a boarding ship, outnumbering the troops on the opposing ship.

I also think that the Kurgan fleet probably gains a bit more from fighters than some other fleets. Take a few martyr fighters against enemy destroyers (with higher hull scores) and take the rockets against ships with lower hull scores (like when you shredded my carrier).
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Lars Porsenna
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Re: Comparisons

Post by Lars Porsenna »

Personally I would trade every laser on my Hawkwood ships for another 2AD missile battery...

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EvilGenius
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Re: Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

I think the turretted missile launchers are great. But I think the Hawkwood ships are meant to attack en masse. Yes, soften them up with the guided missiles, but then concentrate the accurate, precise laser batteries when the shields are down. Statistically speaking, against a hull score of 4, the laser broadsides will hit 3.5 times (round to 3 for the first round, 4 for the second round). If the shields are already down, that's no bulkead hits, 2 solid hits and 1 crit, which causes at least 1 more damage. That's not bad.
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Fen's Ego
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Re: Comparisons

Post by Fen's Ego »

Bob, I absolutely adore the fact that you ran battle simulations. I thought I was the only one delving into the minutia by creating an Excel comparison table for each House by ship class.

Lance, I actually look forward to our battle with some trepidation, even with Kurgan's die-roll handicap based on much of what Bob is saying. Don't discount the advantage of fielding one or more vessels than your enemy since your costs are cheaper, especially when running scenarios that don't require "total 'splosion" of your rival. On paper, I see Kurgan dominant unless I can pull a couple tricks while hopping on one leg and singing "O Canada" backwards. Of course, we'll need to put our fleets through their paces to see if the design team really did their balancing homework.

P.S. If anyone wants to check out the fleet table, I'll post/link/email/Google + it, but it's really only a reorganizing of the data presented in the handbook. But by now, someone probably has 3D renderings in SketchUp or some such.
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EvilGenius
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Re: Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

Tom, I'd really like to check out the comparison. Can you share it in Google Docs/Drive?
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EvilGenius
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Re: Comparisons

Post by EvilGenius »

Lance, one other thing to keep in mind about Rocket batteries. I was reading through the Weapon Upgrade rules in the Fleets expansion and for no extra points you could 'upgrade' one or both of your rockets to semi-guided rockets, which removes the Inaccurate characteristic but reduces the range from 20 to 10'.

I think that will drastically change the usage of your ship, but it's worth considering. For example, if you upgrade your troops and want to become a tougher, more dangerous boarding craft, switch to semi-guided rockets. Use Special Actions to increase speed and close fast. When close enough (and 10" is pretty darn close), unleash semi-guided-rocket hell on your target, then follow up with a boarding action. Or use the threat of semi-guided rockets to discourage someone from coming to your target's rescue.
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Re: Comparisons

Post by Fen's Ego »

Tom, I'd really like to check out the comparison. Can you share it in Google Docs/Drive?
Sure, I just need to look into how to do it. :oops:
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Re: Comparisons

Post by NukeHavoc »

EvilGenius wrote:Under those conditions, one on one, the Decados ship pulverized all comers. The rules say the LiHalan Dragon is widely considered the most effective Destroyer and the Hawkwood Griffin is a fine ship but give me a Decados Tupokta!!!
This isn't surprising, but it's also destroyer-vs.-destroyer and based one what I've seen, I'm not surprised. This is one of the reasons why I bought my strike cruisers; I wanted more long-range firepower with the up-close sucker punch of the fighter bombers. In a low-point fight I might take some additional frigates a second destroyer in order to have more ships to soften up the Decados shields and let me own destroyer exchange long range fire with him.

It's a tough match up though, no doubt about it. Getting close in with any of Bob's ships is an *excellent* way to have your fleets shredded. :)
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